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Thread: Putting American freedoms in perspective

  1. #25
    Whats it to ya? Finch's Avatar
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    I dont understand what your getting at. Your saying that saying "I believe murdering is wrong, and I know what I believe" is an invalid answer to your question. Do i need to say why taking someone elses life is a crime against humanity? Why would tacking on “because god/bible says so” make it any more valid? Because anyone can do that too.
    that makes no logic

  2. #26
    Stay chooned in for more! Clint's Avatar
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    Ay, dios mio! So many posts!

    Atheists get their morality from society. Don't use the argument "Well most people are Christian in society!" because while the majority is Christian, the majority is ALSO secular. It's great that your morality comes from the Bible, but at the same time I could say your beliefs are immoral. See? Look at that! Neither one of us can be "right" in saying if the morality of another person is good or bad in simple day to day things (we can all agree things like rape and murder are bad). You want moral authority, and that's fine, but that authority can ONLY and I mean ONLY apply to the person who chooses to live under it. It can not apply to anyone else but yourself. Thus this authority has now... well it's lost it's authority. This is the problem I had for so long with religion. It took me a long time to realize that God isn't (or I should say my interpretation of God) is not an authoritarian. Look at the differences between you and I. We both have very different interpretations of the Bible and what sin is, yet we both believe the core stuff about Jesus (accept his as our savior, he died for our sins, etc. etc.) so what does it REALLY matter if we live different lives if we both believe in Jesus? And don't say I twist Christianity or I'm not a real Christian (I prefer "Christ-follower" anyway) since that's not really getting us anywhere. My definition of Christian = accept Jesus and that's that. And if there WAS such a thing as a "real" Christian (Which I don't believe there's a right and a wrong way to do it as long as you accept Christ) and one like myself, who'd some say twists it around and makes it up to fit my needs.... well wouldn't you say it's better than not believing in anything? I always had the opinion that the Bible isn't the word of God, it's the word of man inspired and influenced by God. I only believe the red words are the word of God But it's fine if you disagree.

    I'm trying to be bipartisan lmao. Is it working? That's really my new goal now that I've quit smoking. Not to get so angry and passionate.

    So, why are things like murder bad? Well, I don't believe this is a complicated answer at all. Because it violates one's right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Look at that! I didn't even need to pull out a Bible Why can't person number two be correct? Well, first of all is their definition of murder the same as the first persons? If it is, does person number two have any clinically diagnosed mental illnesses? If the answer is no, please see a second doctor.


    ANYWAY, people just don't protest as much these days. I know I'm for one desensitized to all of this extremist bull crap. It's all I ever see on the news, and at this point nothing surprises me and I only hear the voice from the teacher on Charlie Brown.

  3. #27

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    You're all wrong. I follow the Hawk.
    Z polski y dumny
    Prayer - how to do nothing and still think you're helping.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5F5aCUNE4Z8
    ^^^Newest vid

  4. #28
    Doing it wrong until I do it right. xvart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Finch View Post
    I dont understand what your getting at. Your saying that saying "I believe murdering is wrong, and I know what I believe" is an invalid answer to your question. Do i need to say why taking someone elses life is a crime against humanity? Why would tacking on “because god/bible says so” make it any more valid? Because anyone can do that too.
    I think you hit it on the head at the end. Because your opinion is only your opinion compared to saying the bible is the evidence and the foundation of the opinion, is how I interpret the line of questioning. I suppose you (or I) could say, "based on my experience in interacting in a global society I prescribe to the common notion that I prefer not to kill people because the world is more enriched with a variety of people and experiences, of which I would not want to detract from by eliminating the life of one person."

    Quote Originally Posted by phissionkorps View Post
    You're all wrong. I follow the Hawk.
    I hope you mean the Jayhawk's!

    xvart.
    "The tragedy of life is not that every man loses; but that he almost wins."

    "Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?"

  5. #29
    Outsiders71's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Finch View Post
    I dont understand what your getting at. Your saying that saying "I believe murdering is wrong, and I know what I believe" is an invalid answer to your question. Do i need to say why taking someone elses life is a crime against humanity? Why would tacking on “because god/bible says so” make it any more valid? Because anyone can do that too.
    What is there not to understand? You believe that murder is immoral. Someone else believes murdering is moral. Both your reasonings are because "I believe they're moral/immoral because of x" and you state your premises for either cause. That's called a contradiction, you both can't be right or wrong.

    Well if you believe that there is a God, and that God's word aka the Bible is true, then morality is defined by God and not by YOU. Tomorrow God will not decide that stealing is OK it will also be seen as immoral.

    Anyways we are getting OT here, if you wish to discuss this more feel free to PM me.
    James 1:17

    "Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows."

  6. #30
    Outsiders71's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xvart View Post
    I suppose you (or I) could say, "based on my experience in interacting in a global society I prescribe to the common notion that I prefer not to kill people because the world is more enriched with a variety of people and experiences, of which I would not want to detract from by eliminating the life of one person."
    This is not some kind of trick question, but merely logic. You cannot define morality adequately based upon individualistic experiences/feelings. If you agree with defining morality in this sense you then also agree that other people are entitled to believe that murdering is moral.

    This actually ties into the problem in Sudan because the people there are protesting for the British woman to be executed. They think it is moral to kill the teacher because she allowed a teddy bear to be named Muhammad.
    James 1:17

    "Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows."

  7. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outsiders71 View Post
    Here's the problem with this premise. Without moral authority, who's morals are right and who's morals are wrong? I can list an infinite list of things that you could judge as moral or immoral. I can then go up to some random person and ask them to judge that same list as moral or immoral. Most likely the lists will not be the same and therefore who is moral?

    Where does the assumption come from that there must be absolute, cosmically-dictated morality? There's no empirical justification for such an assumption that isn't explained by the inborn inclinations of social animals.

    If it ever becomes evident that there is such a thing as morality with a capital M, then we can start figuring out which acts are truly right and wrong. Until then we're forced to settle for our best attempts at a general consensus.

    As much as we might want an absolute morality, it doesn't seem to me to be the universe's job to hand us one. Our desire doesn't make it so.

  8. #32
    endparenthesis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outsiders71 View Post
    Or you didn't answer because you have no answer. You still haven't shown why your belief that murdering is immoral is valid and that person #2's belief that murdering is moral is not valid. Stating that "because I already know" or I believe is not a good enough reasoning because anyone can say that.

    Figuring out absolute morality with other human beings with the same social instincts can only be so productive. We're all looking through basically the same lenses.

    So here's a hypothetical. Somewhere in the universe there may be sentient life forms who must kill each other constantly for the greater good. Maybe they breed prolifically and put the planet in constant danger of being utterly overwhelmed with them. Maybe there aren't enough other species left to use as food, and cannibalism has been acceptable for so long that it's now the norm in their society, and those who won't practice it are scorned. Lacking the willingness to kill has become taboo.

    Maybe they even have a survival instinct that differs greatly from ours. Maybe they're somehow so socially driven right down to their biology that the survival instinct "switches off" in situations where they know their death is for the better.

    Or maybe they're on the opposite extreme and have no empathy whatsoever (and could never be inspired to acquire it), so the idea that you could ever not be willing to kill another is utterly confounding to them... something they've never even thought of.

    These entities are murdering each other every day. If you had contact with them, would you be able to fault them for it? Should biblical laws apply to them? A cosmically-dictated system of morality must include them too, unless God actually creates a different morality structure for every species (in which case even he's a relativist, it seems). If we could somehow be genetically engineered to hybridize, which laws would the offspring follow?

    And is it moral for them to kill us? Or immoral for us to kill them? There are a thousand questions that emerge out of a scenario like this. And all of them seem to lead us down a path that makes absolutes start to seem simplistic and presumptuous.

    There's a reason we all agree murder is wrong. We all have the same cognitive equipment. The notion that we should be projecting that agreement onto the universe itself is just yet more anthropocentrism on our parts, if you ask me.

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