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Putting American freedoms in perspective

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It's mad isn't it?

One of the children suggested Mohammed because he was called Mohammed. And so that's what the bear was named.

I'm sure God is absolutely appalled by the absolutely shocking crime of a 7 year old naming the class bear after him. Never mind murderers or rapists - it's the purpertrators of cuddly toy hate crimes that are surely destined to burn in hell forever.
 
Dont you see this is what the sudanese government wants you to focus on so your not looking as they kill thousands in Darfur. The government is probably like finally something to distract them from our genocide.

As for the naming of the bear Muhammad its like when Catholics name their kids Jesus and some people get offended. Any thing that has to do with religion has the possibility to cause offense. In this case I believe it is the government trying to shift some focus off its truely heinous crimes against humanity on to lesser offenses against free speech.
 
I saw this and thought it was ridiculous – she let the children pick the name. But what more would you expect from a government that threatened to declare jihad against UN peacekeeping forces?

I saw in one news story that while it may be a common muslim male name ( you hear of many muslim men with the name Muhammad ), it is offensive to some to put the name on an animal… real or otherwise. How accurate that was, i dont know.
 
I don't know anyone who gets offended with kids being named Jesus...and I live in the southwest...there are a loooooooooooooooooooooot of Jesuses (Jesii?) running around.

Either way, this is pretty ridiculous. People need to harden up and stop being such whiny babies about everything. Its a name. Its kids. Its a teddy bear. Anyone who finds offense in that is mentally ill.
 
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If this wasn't a secular nation (in writing at least), we'd be dealing with the same sort of lunacy here. Too many people out there are eager to forget that that's where those freedoms come from.
 
What do you expect? It's Sudan. It's not like they have a nice track record. And I'm not picking on Sudan, there are a LOT of countries I wouldn't touch with a ten foot pole. Iran is a great example. Saudi Arabia has horrible laws,too, yet we have to trade with them for the time being.
 
If this wasn't a secular nation (in writing at least), we'd be dealing with the same sort of lunacy here. Too many people out there are eager to forget that that's where those freedoms come from.

The freedoms come from secularism or from the ideals that the Christian founding father's brought? I'm not sure if this is news to some secularists but Christians aren't out for global domination.
 
Is more of being worried about a situation in which the church has the authority of the state, and the state has the authority of the church (like in sudan),
 
  • #10
I can't think of any religion that has a record of benevolence when in power. That said, unlike what we see in the Muslim world, most (but not all) of Christianity's numerous offenses happened a long time ago. Is that because previous generations of Christian leaders had the wisdom to keep religion far from government or because of some fundamental shift? I don't know the answer and am unwilling to be part of any experiment that tries to see how Christianity handles it now.
 
  • #12
This is why I don't like organized religion. Religion has always caused divisiveness, war, killings, imprisonment, prejudice, hatred, crime... How can you embrace a fundamentalist religion that believes you can murder your way into heaven? ???

I say walk your own path and harm no one.
 
  • #13
The freedoms come from secularism or from the ideals that the Christian founding father's brought? I'm not sure if this is news to some secularists but Christians aren't out for global domination.


I'm certain it's from secularism, as the founding fathers weren't all Christian (no matter what the fundamentalists say) and not all good ideals are exclusively Christian just because they are in the Bible. Many atheists and members of other religions would share many of the same "Christian" ideals, such as honesty, not stealing, monogamy, and not coveting your neighbors ox or slave (male OR female.)

Then again.... that is a sweet ox.


And happy belated birthday :banana2:
 
  • #14
Ok, first people need to realize there is no pan-Islamic world thought pattern like they seem to think. Islam like Christianity has many different sects of thought and practice. This instances does not represent Islam people need to remember that, this is an action of the SUDANESE GOVERNMENT, which has twisted Islam to suit its needs. Dont blame the belief for the abuses it is put too. If you are going to do that then Charles Darwin needs to be held responsible for eugenics. Remember you have too keep in mind who is actually committing the crime not just what twisted logic they used.

Also someone mentioned that Christianity committed its major crimes in the past. You seem to be ignoring facts like the creation of Israel after WWII and the continued funding of Israel by many Christian organization even in the face of crimes against humanity. There is the justification for the war in Iraq that God told George W. to do it. The dominion movement. Suppression of Science and calling for the subjection of women. Need I continue. Every organized religion has and will continue to be abused as long as it can be utilized to move the masses. Face it organized religion is the opiate of the masses.
 
  • #15
I'm certain it's from secularism, as the founding fathers weren't all Christian (no matter what the fundamentalists say)

They might have not all been Christian but the majority were. When did historians become fundamentalists?

and not all good ideals are exclusively Christian just because they are in the Bible. Many atheists and members of other religions would share many of the same "Christian" ideals, such as honesty, not stealing, monogamy, and not coveting your neighbors ox or slave (male OR female.)

Where do their morals come from, the Bible? More importantly where do they get their moral authority from? That's the problem, what's morally unacceptable one day is acceptable the next, because atheist morality comes from themselves and how they feel about a particular matter in a given time. My morality comes from God and doesn't change.

And happy belated birthday :banana2:

Thanks JLAP! :)
 
  • #16
just to add to what ktulu and herenorthere said,



As sudan show, if church and state are one, politicians and the ones in power will not be able to resist keeping their grubby hands out of molding the church doctrine and using their authority to advance their own agendas. Think of the advantage of making whatever war you undertake “holy”. Think of some jihads, and the crusades… holy wars by governments to advance their own means. Popular support of holy wars can be insane, and add legitimacy in your followers mind to whatever you undertake in the course of it.

I think most people strive to be moral individuals no matter what they are, i dont need authority to be moral. My morals may be different from what some people think god's are, but everyone has their own opinion on what god's morals are sometimes it seems anyways.


Is it really your birthday?
Happy birthday! I must make a birthday thread!... but wait i don't see your name in the birthday box at the bottom!
 
  • #17
Ok, first people need to realize there is no pan-Islamic world thought pattern like they seem to think. Islam like Christianity has many different sects of thought and practice. This instances does not represent Islam people need to remember that, this is an action of the SUDANESE GOVERNMENT, which has twisted Islam to suit its needs. Dont blame the belief for the abuses it is put too. If you are going to do that then Charles Darwin needs to be held responsible for eugenics. Remember you have too keep in mind who is actually committing the crime not just what twisted logic they used.

I respect Islam and those who choose to practice it but it's becoming harder and harder to believe your argument. Where are the decent Muslims who despise what is being done in Sudan? Why aren't they protesting, why aren't they being vocal? The only protesting and the only voice the Islamic community has is coming from the "extremists", they need to stand up for their faith.

Also someone mentioned that Christianity committed its major crimes in the past. You seem to be ignoring facts like the creation of Israel after WWII and the continued funding of Israel by many Christian organization even in the face of crimes against humanity.

Tell me something Ktulu, since you believe this matter isn't a double-edged sword. What determines if land belongs to a certain group of people? Is it the amount of years held in ones possession? Is it whoever most recently takes over the land using military force? If it's the latter (because we know the Jews have lived in that region longer than Muslims), then are you trying to say that because the Arab's took the land that is called Israel today by force in the 13th century, that it belongs to them? If we were going to use this methodology then why aren't the Jews the rightful owners today?

There is the justification for the war in Iraq that God told George W. to do it. The dominion movement. Suppression of Science and calling for the subjection of women. Need I continue. Every organized religion has and will continue to be abused as long as it can be utilized to move the masses. Face it organized religion is the opiate of the masses.

I agree that religion can be abused by those who have power. If anything is an opiate it would be ignorance. For if you have true faith in what you believe you should be able to see through the deceit of the corrupted and be vocal against them. Yet we don't see that today from the non-extremists Muslims.
 
  • #18
I think most people strive to be moral individuals no matter what they are, i dont need authority to be moral. My morals may be different from what some people think god's are,

Here's the problem with this premise. Without moral authority, who's morals are right and who's morals are wrong? I can list an infinite list of things that you could judge as moral or immoral. I can then go up to some random person and ask them to judge that same list as moral or immoral. Most likely the lists will not be the same and therefore who is moral?

For instance lets say you believe murdering is immoral. We'll let I stand for immoral, M stand for moral.

You say: Murdering = I
Person 2 says: Murdering = M

How can murdering be both immoral or moral? It can't, it's either moral or it's immoral. It is either right or wrong. What basis does your morality over rule person 2's?

but everyone has their own opinion on what god's morals are sometimes it seems anyways.

You don't have to ask what people believe are God's opinions on morals, He states them clearly in the Bible.

Is it really your birthday?
Happy birthday! I must make a birthday thread!... but wait i don't see your name in the birthday box at the bottom!

Thanks! It's not showing up down there because it was on the 25th :).
 
  • #19
I respect Islam and those who choose to practice it but it's becoming harder and harder to believe your argument. Where are the decent Muslims who despise what is being done in Sudan? Why aren't they protesting, why aren't they being vocal? The only protesting and the only voice the Islamic community has is coming from the "extremists", they need to stand up for their faith.

Something that I have noticed is that extremists in everything always seem to be more vocal… and get the most attention. Sometimes moderates just get squeezed out of the situation, and their not exactly as attention-grabbing as teddy-bear haters. The news on this subject, if you look closely, has mentioned several moderates saying they did not find this offensive… and the moderate defense attorney has to carry around a gun there because of death threats. Perhaps in Sudan, speaking out publicly my cost you your life, and that would really be a hard situation to be in, if being vocal would cost your families life. In Sudan.


You don't have to ask what people believe are God's opinions on morals, He states them clearly in the Bible.
But sometimes he does not, and sometimes its open to interpretation by the reader. Some people will state god hates gays, some people will tell you what god thinks, and they contradict often. Like, why would god hate anyone? I thought he loved? But see what I mean? There is nothing on this earth that is not subject to the individuals own interpretations.
 
  • #20
Something that I have noticed is that extremists in everything always seem to be more vocal… and get the most attention. Sometimes moderates just get squeezed out of the situation, and their not exactly as attention-grabbing as teddy-bear haters. The news on this subject, if you look closely, has mentioned several moderates saying they did not find this offensive… and the moderate defense attorney has to carry around a gun there because of death threats. Perhaps in Sudan, speaking out publicly my cost you your life, and that would really be a hard situation to be in, if being vocal would cost your families life. In Sudan.

I understand the fear of being killed for speaking out against the extremists locally in Sudan. However there are what, over a billion+ Muslims world wide? Even in this country we have millions of Muslims, where their voices or demonstrations could be heard and seen. Silence can be seen as a form of agreement. Isn't it time to break the silence?

But sometimes he does not, and sometimes its open to interpretation by the reader. Some people will state god hates gays, some people will tell you what god thinks, and they contradict often.

Anyone who states that God hates gays is ignorant and doesn't know God. Instead they are trying to use God in a way that promotes their anti-gay agenda.

Like, why would god hate anyone? I thought he loved? But see what I mean? There is nothing on this earth that is not subject to the individuals own interpretations.

If God truly hated then why did He bother to redeem us? Why send His son into this world, so that He would live a sinless, self-less life and make atonement for something He didn't do?
 
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