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off shoot of the Ron Paul thread.....USA the worlds police force.....

  • #21
what are you using for your successful socialized health care......i live near the Canadian border and Montana hospitals have lots of Canadians in them......if "free" socialized health care in Canada is so good why do they come to the US? some of my employees get free health care via the government because they are Indian...........they choose to opt into the health insurance we offer at the paper and PAY for it. i havent seen socialized health care really work in any country unless your willing to fork over over half your income in taxes to pay for it.....either way your paying big bucks for it....IIRC awhile back i saw a show on health care in one of the scandinavian countries.....government pays for everything......if the doc says your two stressed out and would benifit from a few days off in the sun down in the Mediteranian cause of the lack of sunlight that far north in the winter....the government sends you......this is all good but they are also paying something like 60-70% of their income in taxes. ive got friends up in Saskatchewan who tell me they pay around 50% of there income to taxes.................
 
  • #22
I think a full blown socialized health care system is not what this country needs. Mike Huckabee has some interesting points in terms of health care and I pretty much agree with them. On top of that the pharmaceutical companies need to be dealt with. They shouldn't be allowed to advertise their products at all, we shouldn't be going to the doctor asking for "X", the doctor should be telling us "after analysis" you need "X".

http://www.mikehuckabee.com/?FuseAction=Issues.View&Issue_id=8

However on top of those changes I think there should be some form of basic, minimum, government provided health care for every U.S. citizen.

Just for an example:

2 Free visits to a physician or pediatrician, a month.
2 Free visits to the dentist for teeth cleaning, a year.
2 Free E.R. visits, a year.
1 Free visit to the eye doctor for eye examination, a year.
1 Free prescription, a month.

Everything outside of those basic essentials you have to pay for.
 
  • #23
That's just not right, Rattler. Countries like the Scandinavian countries or Germany or whoever all spend less than we do per capita on health care and they're all covered completely from birth to the grave. We spend the most of anyone in the world, because we're enriching an entire industry (insurance) with billions in profits that don't in any way go to actual health care. And our system is a constant pain in the a-- to get anything paid for, as the insurance industry is REALLY about denying payments whenever possible. I have 60 employees with health care, and I've seen every simple type of payment for the most basic and obvious things denied just because they can. Our system is a wasteful disaster. So I recommend we do what is working better abroad. Overall, perhaps they go too far with their taxes, but I'm not saying we should copy everything they do. Just the things that are working better right now.

Capslock
 
  • #25
However on top of those changes I think there should be some form of basic, minimum, government provided health care for every U.S. citizen.

Just for an example:

2 Free visits to a physician or pediatrician, a month.
2 Free visits to the dentist for teeth cleaning, a year.
2 Free E.R. visits, a year.
1 Free visit to the eye doctor for eye examination, a year.
1 Free prescription, a month.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

That will never work. Ever. Do you know any doctors in the US? I mean really know them (not just BSing in their clinic when you see them)? I grew up around them, and there are quite a few I know really well. That plan you just proposed is the MOST absurd and unnecessary plan possible. Free ER visits for a year? ARE YOU KIDDING ME? ER visits cost about $10,000. If someone goes 3 times a year for whatever reasons, thats at least $30k. I'm sure as hell not paying for that. The reason I mentioned really knowing doctors earlier, is because if you did, you'd know that they'd all quit if socialized medicine became the law. Signing socialized medicine into law would be like signing the death sentence of a whole lot of people. The majority of doctors really, honestly, would quit, and sick people (at least while things got sorted out), wouldn't receive any help, and a lot of them would die. Sad, but thats the way it is. Socialized medicine will never happen in this country. Why would you want it to anyway? Countries with socialized medicine have awful healthcare compared to the US because the doctors don't care at all. There's no incentive to do your best when you're only getting paid $10 for something that costs $3000, or if you're not getting paid at all. (Plus, doctors and pharm companies have way too many and way too powerful lobbyists on the hill...that joke known as socialized medicine isn't ever going to happen)
 
  • #26
However on top of those changes I think there should be some form of basic, minimum, government provided health care for every U.S. citizen.

Just for an example:

2 Free visits to a physician or pediatrician, a month.
2 Free visits to the dentist for teeth cleaning, a year.
2 Free E.R. visits, a year.
1 Free visit to the eye doctor for eye examination, a year.
1 Free prescription, a month.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

That will never work. Ever. Do you know any doctors in the US? I mean really know them (not just BSing in their clinic when you see them)? I grew up around them, and there are quite a few I know really well. That plan you just proposed is the MOST absurd and unnecessary plan possible. Free ER visits for a year? ARE YOU KIDDING ME? ER visits cost about $10,000. If someone goes 2 times a year for whatever reasons, thats at least $20k. I'm sure as hell not paying for that. The reason I mentioned really knowing doctors earlier, is because if you did, you'd know that they'd all quit if socialized medicine became the law. Signing socialized medicine into law would be like signing the death sentence of a whole lot of people. The majority of doctors really, honestly, would quit, and sick people (at least while things got sorted out), wouldn't receive any help, and a lot of them would die. Sad, but thats the way it is. Socialized medicine will never happen in this country. Why would you want it to anyway? Countries with socialized medicine have awful healthcare compared to the US because the doctors don't care at all. There's no incentive to do your best when you're only getting paid $10 for something that costs $3000, or if you're not getting paid at all. (Plus, doctors and pharm companies have way too many and way too powerful lobbyists on the hill...that joke known as socialized medicine isn't ever going to happen)
 
  • #27
Capslock..............i dont know that we are ever going to agree on this.....#1 i live below the poverty line according to the government and would benifit most from these programs you would think.........but as is i live comfortably. im paying for a house. am paying off student loans my wife has, have 2 kids in the house, pay for health insurance, make car payments and insurance. all this without having major credit card debt............according to the government i should be living in government housing barely making it.........yet im just fine. my wife and i take home $700(together) a week and can afford all this plus hobbies. why in the hell would i want socialized programs? i live on an indian reservation, travel to Canada..........ive seen socialized systems in action.......i cant afford socialized programs.
 
  • #28
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

That will never work. Ever. Do you know any doctors in the US? I mean really know them (not just BSing in their clinic when you see them)? I grew up around them, and there are quite a few I know really well. That plan you just proposed is the MOST absurd and unnecessary plan possible. Free ER visits for a year? ARE YOU KIDDING ME? ER visits cost about $10,000. If someone goes 2 times a year for whatever reasons, thats at least $20k. I'm sure as hell not paying for that. The reason I mentioned really knowing doctors earlier, is because if you did, you'd know that they'd all quit if socialized medicine became the law. Signing socialized medicine into law would be like signing the death sentence of a whole lot of people. The majority of doctors really, honestly, would quit, and sick people (at least while things got sorted out), wouldn't receive any help, and a lot of them would die. Sad, but thats the way it is. Socialized medicine will never happen in this country. Why would you want it to anyway? Countries with socialized medicine have awful healthcare compared to the US because the doctors don't care at all. There's no incentive to do your best when you're only getting paid $10 for something that costs $3000, or if you're not getting paid at all. (Plus, doctors and pharm companies have way too many and way too powerful lobbyists on the hill...that joke known as socialized medicine isn't ever going to happen)

I just listed those things as an example, it's not set in stone nor undebatable. Regardless I think there should be some kind of basic coverage, for every U.S. citizen. I don't think the government should pay for everything, but the very basic essentials that everyone needs, especially if they are the ~40 or so million of people who don't have any health insurance at all.
 
  • #29
I don't think the government should pay for everything


the government doesnt pay for jack chit...........YOU the tax payer does........YOU the tax payer, pays for every single thing the government does.............socialized health care will be payed for by YOU THE TAX PAYER
 
  • #30
What makes you think that, PK? Have you been to any of these countries? They have a far more functional system than ours - and it's far easier on the doctors. In this country they're buried in paperwork, up to their necks in malpractice insurance (more damn insurance!), and we don't get good care unless you're rich.

Fact is, that uninsured people COST us money, because they don't get preventative or primary health care and end up with costly emergency room visits and undiagnosed and treated illnesses. Our system is broken. We pay more, have more uninsured, and have pretty bad life expectancy and mortality rates. All we have to do is look at who's doing it well. Where it's working in the world. Why is that so threatening?

Capslock
 
  • #31
What makes you think that, PK? Have you been to any of these countries? They have a far more functional system than ours - and it's far easier on the doctors. In this country they're buried in paperwork, up to their necks in malpractice insurance (more damn insurance!), and we don't get good care unless you're rich.

Fact is, that uninsured people COST us money, because they don't get preventative or primary health care and end up with costly emergency room visits and undiagnosed and treated illnesses. Our system is broken. We pay more, have more uninsured, and have pretty bad life expectancy and mortality rates. All we have to do is look at who's doing it well. Where it's working in the world. Why is that so threatening?

Capslock

do you want me to give yah the phone numbers of some Canadian docs who though after some years in the Canadian health care system said this isnt right for the patient and moved to the US and became US citizens?
 
  • #32
BTW Caps whats so wrong with me wanting to bust my arse to pay for the things that they need be it food or health care and not pay for those that wont get off ther arse to help themselves and instead look for a government hand out. im happy to pay taxes to keep the roads in good shape, im happy to pay taxes to make sure i have clean drinking water.....im happy to pay taxes to support the school system IF those tax dollars are going to the local schools. ill happily pay taxes for alot of things but ill be damned if ill agree to pay taxes for a hand out and free health care for someone who doesnt think its worth getting off their arse to look for a job.............
 
  • #33
the government doesnt pay for jack chit...........YOU the tax payer does........YOU the tax payer, pays for every single thing the government does.............socialized health care will be payed for by YOU THE TAX PAYER

I'm not suggesting a full blown socialized health care! Just the very basic essentials, to improve the health disparities we have today. A child shouldn't have to die from a fever because his parents don't have health insurance or money.
 
  • #34
dont know that we are ever going to agree on this.....#1 i live below the poverty line according to the government and would benifit most from these programs you would think.........but as is i live comfortably. im paying for a house. am paying off student loans my wife has, have 2 kids in the house, pay for health insurance, make car payments and insurance. all this without having major credit card debt............according to the government i should be living in government housing barely making it.........yet im just fine. my wife and i take home $700(together) a week and can afford all this plus hobbies. why in the hell would i want socialized programs? i live on an indian reservation, travel to Canada..........ive seen socialized systems in action.......i cant afford socialized programs.

The cost of living in montana and south dakota is also ridiculously low compared to the rest of the nation.


but ill be damned if ill agree to pay taxes for a hand out and free health care for someone who doesnt think its worth getting off their arse to look for a job.............

And so thus people who actually work hard but fall on hard times, forget you too, thats what this attitude says to me. Free health care is not the same as insurance coverage. We dont need free health care, we need better coverage.
 
  • #35
If you need a new liver in Canada, they tell you to sign a list, and they might get to you in about 7 years...even if you're only expected to survive for another 2. Give a doctor in the US the money for the operation, and they will do it tonight. Socialized medicine is not good for the patient. I used to live in Germany, and while they focus generally on prevention I suppose, their system is also not that great. Not as bad as in Canada, but German doctors are stupid. I'm not being mean, I'm being realistic. They simply are not taught anywhere near the level that American doctors are...and that's dangerous.
 
  • #36
In the United States, more than 84,000 men, women and children are waiting for organ transplants.
 
  • #37
Rattler, you pay MORE for our broken system. I don't know much about the Canadian system so I can't comment on that. But I have friends in Switzerland and Germany and several other places, and they think we're nuts. We already have to pay for those who can't afford it - it's built into your bills. The only alternative is we have poor people dying in the streets. And as a result of 40 million people not having health insurance, we end up paying MORE than we should for our own insurance. We pay more than anyone in the world, but the quality of our care is not up to that. Why stay with the most inefficient system on the planet where you, the taxpayer, pays MORE than they would in a universal (don't think "socialized" it poisons the thought) system? There are tons of systems out there that combine private and public funding that work, too. Like Switzerland. The point is that it's counter-productive to not universalize the system since everyone in the end needs healthcare. The whole business of insurance (expensive payment denial service) is a complete waste!
 
  • #38
If you need a new liver in Canada, they tell you to sign a list, and they might get to you in about 7 years...even if you're only expected to survive for another 2. Give a doctor in the US the money for the operation, and they will do it tonight. Socialized medicine is not good for the patient. I used to live in Germany, and while they focus generally on prevention I suppose, their system is also not that great. Not as bad as in Canada, but German doctors are stupid. I'm not being mean, I'm being realistic. They simply are not taught anywhere near the level that American doctors are...and that's dangerous.

That's not exactly right. The wait for organs in Canada is not 7 years in any sort of average. And their wait times are directly due to the lack of Canadian donors (for whatever reason, their rate of donation is one of the lowest in the world), not because if institutional delays.

Also, for results, look up mortality rates for various diseases. We don't show well on those lists, despite paying more than anyone in the world.
 
  • #39
The only way to fix the healthcare system is to put caps on the insurance companies. They continue to raise premiums so they can make more money, then they refuse to pay doctors the actual amount of the surgery/procedure/whatever, so they just make more money. They're one of the only industries that continually reports climbing profits, even in a recession. If premiums weren't sky high, more people would have health insurance, and it wouldn't cost so much. Personally, I don't mind paying more for better treatment. I've been to German doctors and they are horrible. German doctors that have been practicing for years know about as much as a first year med student in the US.

For whatever reason it may be, the EXTREMELY long wait times in Canada just go to show that their system isn't better....
 
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