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Thread: The Mike Huckabee 2008 thread

  1. #81

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    For instance if you believe in the big bang theory as the source of how the universe started, how is that not equivalent to believing that God created the universe? They both require the same type of faith, just in a different source. This scenario has nothing to do about knowledge, but everything to do with faith.
    Because we have no evidence of God, yet we actually have evidence of the Big Bang, including images showing the temperature distribution at the time.

    What I'm trying to say is there is no answer that can be applied universally upon everyone, because every explanation of life requires some kind of faith and it's not fair for the scientific community to try and claim they have the golden answer because they don't.
    You really don't understand the difference between science and religion, do you?

    Imagine there's a large sack full of something, and nobody can open it. The priest simply proclaims that it's full of bricks based on a vision he had. The scientist pokes and prods the sack, feels that it's full of round things, and hypothesizes they are oranges. When a subsequent scientist repeats the trial, she finds that the round things are too small, and are more likely to be nectarines. All three people could be wrong, but the difference is that the scientists base their hypotheses on evidence, and are willing to acknowledge that they don't know. Even though nobody knows, the evidence DOES show 100% that the contents are not bricks. There's no 'faith' in that - it's simply the product of evidence.

    It's the same with evolution - the data lead to a conclusion, subsequent analysis has shown the conclusion to be supported, so there's no reason to regard it as anything but the most likely correct answer. "Faith" plays no part, as nobody says it's absolute truth, only that the evidence supports it, and flatly contradicts creationism.

    Do you think the beginnings of the universe, and the origin of life on Earth are things that are knowable and are open to logical evaluation? I don't. I believe they are both unknowable and are only open to idle speculation and faith.
    So, fossils don't exist? The cosmic microwave background doesn't exist?

    That's like saying we can never know where diamonds come from because nobody watched the current diamonds form. Just because we weren't around to directly observe something doesn't mean it left no evidence of its prior state.

    The fact is there isn't 100% evidence, and it's not possible to ever have 100% evidence about the origin of life on Earth. If you want to take the little evidence there is and stretch it by faith, go for it. You can put your faith in whatever you choose to, no one is stopping you.
    Strawman. I never said there was 100% proof of a given hypothesis of life on Earth, only that the evidence we DO have flatly contradicts your theory.

    To return to the sack analogy, we may not know whether it has oranges or nectarines, but the known roundness *does* rule out bricks.

    God is clear about how life on Earth was created and it was not through the speciation of one cell.
    No, actually, there's only a myth which cannot be interpreted literally, because it's just plain stupid (we have *proof* that humans were never represented by just 2 individuals, written throughout our genes).

    Can you please explain to me what is allegorical about Genesis 1:26-30 and Genesis 2:7? They are affirmations from God that we are not a result of speciation.
    See above.

    Care to explain how you account for the dead viri in our genomes that are PRECISELY matched to those in chimps?

    Care to explain how you can claim God created each species when we have directly observed the evolution of new species in the wild?

    Or are you going to just ignore facts and evidence, as usual?

    Then do you not accept the Bible as the word of God? He clearly states that He created man.
    Does he specify HOW man was created? Does it say he could not have evolved? Remember, these stories may have been divinely inspired, but they were transcribed by barely-literate shepards who thought stars were holes in the blanket of night.

    Please show this undeniable evidence starting from the first living organism, to now, showing all the speciations from that original organism.
    It's called the fossil record, look it up. Yes, there are gaps, but that no more disproves it than the gaps in history prove that George Washington was a space alien.

    How so? There are more historical accounts of a flood than just from the Bible
    Actually, the documents of a flood all derive from the Middle East, which makes it more likely they're simply exaggerations of a large local flood. There are no flood records from Andean cultures, or Australia, or the Kalahari. Given that *any* rainfall is a notable event in all three locales, if the Flood were real, I doubt they wouldn't have noticed it.

    Do you believe that Jesus actually lived on this Earth 2,000+ years ago? Or is the Bible wrong about that as well, even though there's documents from Jewish and Roman historians about Jesus?
    Sure, but that means nothing. Claiming that any factual accuracy of the Bible proves it is the word of God is stupid. I'm writing a novel right now, and it does have factual accuracy - there is indeed a system of abandoned subway tunnels under Cincinnati, but that does not in any way support the existence of aliens and socialist werewolves rampaging through the city.

    Mokele
    \"With malleus aforethought, mammals got an earful of their ancestor's jaw.\"
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  2. #82
    endparenthesis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scottychaos View Post
    "Historical accounts" are meaningless..
    they could all be small, local floods.
    and anyone writing all those "historical accounts" would have no way of knowing what was happening 10 miles from from their home..
    "Historical accounts" are meaningless..
    The Planet disproves the world-wide Noahs flood myth.

    Most incriminating are the societies that have no flood myth whose written histories cover that era. A planet-engulfing flood doesn't just go unnoticed.

    Especially since Noah and Co. are supposed to be the only survivors.

    EDIT: Mokele beat me to it.

  3. #83
    Moderator Schmoderator Fluorescent fluorite, England PlantAKiss's Avatar
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    Personally I have been apalled by how much ALL the candidates have been waving the God flag for this election. I have nothing against religion and a candidate having faith in whatever they choose, but I strongly believe in the separation of Church and State and don't wany ANY candidate dragging their religious beliefs into their governing. And I feel the more religiously zealous a candidate is, the more they will be unable to keep their personal beliefs out of their political decisions.

    The entire anti-abortion issue is religion based...not based on an individual's right to make medical decisions for themselves and their unique situations. I don't want government mandating what I can do with MY own body.
    "Fox terriers are born with about four times as much original sin in them as other dogs." - Jerome K. Jerome

  4. #84
    Outsiders71's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mokele View Post
    Because we have no evidence of God, yet we actually have evidence of the Big Bang, including images showing the temperature distribution at the time.
    Science cannot explain the supernatural, only things that are empirical and can be observed/tested. You cannot physically observe or test God, which makes any statement that "we have evidence of this, but nothing of God" stupid. Of course there isn't any scientific evidence for God, that's a GIVEN! People have observed that the Earth was flat and that plate tectonics didn't exist. Anyone can make up a hypothesis based on observations, does that make them fact? No. The real fact here is that no living human observed the origin of the universe and science will never be able to figure it out. Why....because no one observed it! You can't test it either!

    Quote Originally Posted by Mokele View Post
    It's the same with evolution - the data lead to a conclusion, subsequent analysis has shown the conclusion to be supported, so there's no reason to regard it as anything but the most likely correct answer. "Faith" plays no part, as nobody says it's absolute truth, only that the evidence supports it, and flatly contradicts creationism.
    I'm not interested in a most likely answer. If you want to put faith in a most likely answer, go ahead but quit trying to preach it as the way it happened. As stated in the above example, the origin of life on Earth cannot be observed or tested, no one was there. I don't think anyone here argues with the fact that adaptations in populations do occur, because that can be observed and tested. However the propaganda that all life on Earth is a result of a speciation of one ancestoral cell from billions of years ago is fallacy at best. You cannot observe the origin of life and you can't test it!

    Quote Originally Posted by Mokele View Post
    So, fossils don't exist?
    Are you trying to say that if God created all the life on Earth today that there wouldn't be fossils?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mokele View Post
    That's like saying we can never know where diamonds come from because nobody watched the current diamonds form. Just because we weren't around to directly observe something doesn't mean it left no evidence of its prior state.
    No it's really nothing like that. Science could experimentally turn pure carbon into diamonds given the right temperatures and pressure. Tell me, how many populations of primates has science seen evolve into Neanderthals?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mokele View Post
    Strawman. I never said there was 100% proof of a given hypothesis of life on Earth, only that the evidence we DO have flatly contradicts your theory.
    How can science contradict something that is supernatural when it doesn't consider the supernatural in any of its practices? You have a very loosely based scientific theory that doesn't even come from the direct empirical evidence of the event.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mokele View Post
    No, actually, there's only a myth which cannot be interpreted literally, because it's just plain stupid (we have *proof* that humans were never represented by just 2 individuals, written throughout our genes).
    If humans were just represented by two individuals, we wouldn't be here today would we? The Human Genome Project found that the DNA of any two humans was 99.9 percent similar in content and identity. An article published in the journal called "Nature" suggests that there may be a 10% difference.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mokele View Post
    Care to explain how you can claim God created each species when we have directly observed the evolution of new species in the wild?

    Or are you going to just ignore facts and evidence, as usual?
    http://www.harunyahya.com/books/darw..._error_04a.php

    Quote Originally Posted by Mokele View Post
    Does he specify HOW man was created? Does it say he could not have evolved? Remember, these stories may have been divinely inspired, but they were transcribed by barely-literate shepards who thought stars were holes in the blanket of night.
    No part of the Bible was written by a shepherd...anyways no there is no specification on how man was created. No one is suggesting to know the exact means of how it happened. What I'm arguing is that God plainly states that He created everything, and everything individually.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mokele View Post
    It's called the fossil record, look it up. Yes, there are gaps, but that no more disproves it than the gaps in history prove that George Washington was a space alien.
    The fossil record doesn't prove anything besides the fact that something once lived and died. If God created everything, there would still be fossils. The difference is you take those same very fossils and use them to back your scientific guess.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mokele View Post
    Actually, the documents of a flood all derive from the Middle East, which makes it more likely they're simply exaggerations of a large local flood. There are no flood records from Andean cultures, or Australia, or the Kalahari. Given that *any* rainfall is a notable event in all three locales, if the Flood were real, I doubt they wouldn't have noticed it.
    If you lived back in that time, you're concept of the whole world would be a little different than what it is today. Especially if a huge localized flood in the Middle East occurred you would say the whole world was flooded. Because to you that was the whole world. Regardless there's enough evidence to support there was some kind of great flood in the Middle East, where a majority of early civilization lived.
    James 1:17

    "Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows."

  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by PlantAKiss View Post
    The entire anti-abortion issue is religion based...not based on an individual's right to make medical decisions for themselves and their unique situations. I don't want government mandating what I can do with MY own body.
    What about the fetus' body? Does it not have rights to life as well, or are we only selfish enough to acknowledge our body with those rights? Life starts at conception, and abortions kill a life. Explain to me how this is religious based.
    James 1:17

    "Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows."

  6. #86

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    What about the fetus' body? Does it not have rights to life as well
    No. Until a fetus can pop out and survive on its own (i.e. not hooked up to a bunch of tubes and whathaveyou), all it is is a parasite.

    Life starts at conception, and abortions kill a life
    Stupid. 1 cell (egg) that has been infiltrated by a piece of DNA with a propeller on it is not life (I realize that technically it is, but you know). End of story. Squashing an undifferentiated ball of cells is not murder any more than skinning your knee is. Its so hard to argue scientific stuff with religious people that don't understand the first thing about it.

    Explain to me how this is religious based.
    Because religious people (ESPECIALLY catholics) are more or less the only ones that subscribe to the "life begins at conception" horsehockey.


    And to what Outsiders said last page that Mokele responded to: no reputable historians talk about Jesus. The ones that were were well known and very thorough in the area at the time (i.e. they would've know about anything of interest he did, especially the "miracles"), either didn't mention him, or just said that he existed with no more than a sentence or two. The one historian that gave a descriptive account of Jesus (can't remember his name) - that document was proven a forgery hundreds of years ago, and every prominent historian since then that has studied it says it was fake. Apparently jesus either didn't exist, or wasn't that much of a bad$#%. Though what I just said is documented fact and cannot be refuted, I'm sure you'll find some nonsensical tangent on it and attempt to discredit hundreds of prominent historians since you "know" better....
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  7. #87
    Stay chooned in for more! Clint's Avatar
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    Killing life doesn't mean much. A tumor is alive. And a fetus isn't much different than a tumor.Abortion isn't a ...pretty procedure, but the fetus isn't conscious.

    Something can be living, without being alive. A comatose person is "living" but doesn't really have a life. No offense meant by that.

  8. #88
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    abortion is one of those topics..........there is no way i could do it.....had a scare when i was young and dumb yet i came to the conclusion of regardless of weither the gal was interested in being a mother or not i wanted the kid, it was my duty to see it through.....an abortion caused by a mistake of MY OWN was not acceptable. however i dont believe i should say what someone i dont know should do so as far as im concerned abortion should be legal......im not one to force my beliefs on another person. as ive said before im concerned about me and my own and what someone else does is not my concern nor do i have a right to regulate it.
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