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humidity question.

  • #21
im in los angeles, around hollywood. to be exact, hollywood and western is the cross street


well..your winters are a touch too warm for an "ideal" winter dormancy..
but few of us have ideal conditions..the plants can adapt, within reason.

actually..I just googled average temps for LA,
found this:
http://www.laalmanac.com/weather/we88.htm

those readings are actually quite good!
yes, a touch warm, but if you dip into the 40's at night in January, your plants should go dormant quite well in the winter!

You are one of the lucky ones among us..
this is how I would grow VFTs and Sarracenia if I were you.

Put them outside, in a sunny spot, (direct sun for several hours at least)
leave them there...dont move them..ever...for many decades to come. :D

Nature should take care of winter dormancy for you..im jealous!
this is what I have to do in the winter: :down:

http://www.terraforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=95809

But I have 5 months of VERY cold winter, and 100 feet of snow every winter.
Climatologically, im in Canada. ;)

I would put your plants outside..right now.
leave them there..forever.
dont worry about humidity..the plants will adapt.

hopefully they might go semi-dormant for the rest of the winter..if they do, that would be a good thing..come spring, they should start pumping out new growth like crazy.

Scot
 
  • #22
its around 40-50 at night o_o sometime even colder... or maybe its just me. i'm cold at night >_> 2 blankey
 
  • #23
I grow my VFTs outside in California, where the daytime humidity is LOOOOOOOW. Flytraps will do fine in most any humidity. Just give them lots of sun.
 
  • #24
Humidity is not a problem in the Los Angeles area. Relative Humidity rarely dips below 30%, usually only during the Santa Ana wind conditions. Those happen maybe 10-25 days out of the year. As long as you keep the trays filled with water there should be no problem.

Joosa is growing his temperate CPs outdoors in the Lancaster/Palmdale desert.

Here are the total precipitation(inches) Average and Average Max/Min Air temperatures and Relative Humidity for Glendale, CA (just up the road from Hollywood) since Feb 2006:

Code:
MoYr	TPrec	AMaxT	AMinT	AvgT	AMaxRH%	AMinRH%	ARH%
Feb-06	3.52	68.4	42.3	54.6	78	30	53
Mar-06	4.17	59.4	40.6	49.5	95	52	76
Apr-06	3.07	64.6	46	55	96	56	77
May-06	1.23	72.7	53.1	61.8	98	61	81
Jun-06	0.16	82.4	58.3	69.7	96	51	73
Jul-06	0	88.8	62.2	75.2	92	34	58
Aug-06	0	83.4	56.8	69	81	27	56
Sep-06	0	82.8	57.5	68.9	81	39	59
Oct-06	0	74	51.9	61.6	83	43	63
Nov-06	0.09	73.5	48	59.5	81	36	58
Dec-06	0.03	66.6	42.5	53	70	27	48
Jan-07	0.14	63.3	40.5	51.2	68	26	44
Feb-07	2.05	65.8	43.6	53.9	86	38	62
Mar-07	1.13	70.8	46.2	57.7	80	38	57
Apr-07	1.65	68.4	47	57	93	50	71
May-07	1.69	72.2	50.9	60.7	88	50	74
Jun-07	0	77.8	53.2	65	92	50	71
Jul-07	0	83.3	59.9	70.6	92	50	71
Aug-07	0	85.8	60.8	72.3	85	44	65
Sep-07	0	80.1	56.9	67.2	87	44	65
Oct-07	0	77	52.8	63.8	79	36	56
Nov-07	0	70.8	47.6	57.6	81	41	63
Dec-07	0	62.4	40.5	50.3	78	34	57
Jan-08	0	67.1	40.8	51.6	49	17	36

Source: http://wwwcimis.water.ca.gov/
 
  • #25
To put it in perspective, arguably the most popular and well known nursery's care sheet on the VFT mentions NOTHING about humidity. Why? Because it matters none. They can survive low humidity and cold winters. They can literally be snowed on in winter and come back the following spring.
 
  • #26
I dont know if i would agree with "humidity doesnt matter" statement, especially if it is a long term condition. It is one of the factors that contol stomatal closure, along with light levels, substrate moisute levels, ABA levels etc. While the plant may survive, the question becomes "is the plant's overall condition or growth rate being affected by the low humidity?"

Stomata respond directly to changes in humidity and to ABA released from roots upon the onset of drought stress. It has been postulated that ABA is released from mesophyll cells during drought and subsequently induces stomatal closure (Hartung et al., 1988).

Stomata will initially open after a drop in air humidity, but stomatal closure sets in upon prolonged exposure times (Kappen et al., 1987; Mott et al., 1997). Closure of stomata, observed at low air humidity, apparently is not a simple consequence of turgor loss, but is a guard cell-controlled process.

Stomata can be regarded as hydraulically driven valves in the leaf surface, which open to allow CO2 uptake and close to prevent excessive loss of water. Movement of these ‘Watergates’ is regulated by environmental conditions, such as light, CO2 and humidity. Guard cells can sense environmental conditions and function as motor cells within the stomatal complex. Stomatal movement results from the transport of K+ salts across the guard cell membranes. (M. Rob G. Roelfsema and Rainer Hedrich., 2005)


Cheers'
Av
 
  • #27
That study sounds more like it applies to uncontrolled conditions. I'm pretty sure he can manage to keep the substrate moist, which in turn will elevate the local humidity around the plant. And like I said, I grow mine outdoors in his area and they thrive. Can't argue with the science of observation.
 
  • #28
I'm pretty sure he can manage to keep the substrate moist, which in turn will elevate the local humidity around the plant.

Now that I will agree with, a lot of factors come into play... :)

Av
 
Last edited by a moderator:
  • #29
To put it in perspective, arguably the most popular and well known nursery's care sheet on the VFT mentions NOTHING about humidity. Why? Because it matters none. They can survive low humidity and cold winters. They can literally be snowed on in winter and come back the following spring.

well yeah..they can technically survive a light snow and a light freeze..
but there is a big difference between a snow fall on wild VFTs in South Carolina, that lasts a day, two days tops, then quickly melts when it returns to 50 degree days..

Versus the snow of the Northern states and Canada..which can last for 5 months with temps well below zero for weeks at a time..

"snowed on" is very relative! ;)

In Atlanta, Georgia, I wouldnt worry if my VFTs get snowed on..
In Rochester, NY, I would..

Scot
 
  • #30
To put the amount of snow we have here in the south into perspective, we got a light dusting of snow last night. By light dusting, I mean you could see through the layer of snow at whatever is underneath it. I'm guessing... not even a full quarter inch. It was all over the news this morning. The local grocery store was almost bought out. People freak at the lightest dusting of snow here because since it is so rare, it's a big deal. We might get one more light dusting,if we're "lucky", and won't see it again for another year.

It IS very relative as Scot said. I'm in the N. GA mountains at the moment and it's not as warm as their natural habitat. There's "snow" then there's SNOW! I can't even comprehend the amount of snow, and the temperatures, that people up north get.
 
  • #31
To put the amount of snow we have here in the south into perspective, we got a light dusting of snow last night. By light dusting, I mean you could see through the layer of snow at whatever is underneath it. I'm guessing... not even a full quarter inch. It was all over the news this morning. The local grocery store was almost bought out. People freak at the lightest dusting of snow here because since it is so rare, it's a big deal. We might get one more light dusting,if we're "lucky", and won't see it again for another year.

I always find that funny!
In Rochester & Buffalo, a 6-inch snowfall IS "a light dusting"..no one even blinks...
one or two feet overnight might slow things down a bit in the morning, but everything is back to normal by the drive home from work that afternoon..

Its not a big deal until you get into the 3-foot range..then the schools close and you might not go into work..for one day only.

We got 4" of snow last night..traffic was running normally when I went into work at 7am..
I didnt even bother to shovel the driveway, its just a dusting.

We are going to down to 5 degrees tonight..
but up to 60 a week from today!
major warming trend for the North East coming in a few days! :D

Scot
 
  • #32
yep..me too.
I dont bother much with "acclimating slowly"..
the plants always do fine..

just stick them outside in the bright light and they do great.
(VFTs and Sarrs..not Neps)

Scot

I take exception to this advice. I received 10 VFT's from xscd and potted them up. I had them in the attic where it was cool but not frigid. Then I had them under the porch for a week, so they could acclimate a bit before putting them in full sun. To all appearances they seemed adjusted, so I put them in full sun, where they all promptly "burned". All the xisting leaves died but it was also evident that there would be new growth. Only one plant actually died, but they were all set back.

Then there was the move I had in late July. I put the whole collection outside on the porch until I could get something set up inside. Strangley, nothing reacted the first two days. But after the third day, all of my Mexican butterworts, nearly all of the utrics, and about half the sundews reacted. Ultimately, the butterworts nearly all recovered, as did the utrics. The sundews were the worst victims of the change from window sill / closet, under artificial lighting. I was picking dead plants for weeks thereafter. The VFT's, Sarrs, and temoerate sundews did fine.

My point is that even stable, acclimated indoor plants can go into shock, if placed in direct sunlight.
 
  • #33
I take exception to this advice. I received 10 VFT's from xscd and potted them up. I had them in the attic where it was cool but not frigid. Then I had them under the porch for a week, so they could acclimate a bit before putting them in full sun. To all appearances they seemed adjusted, so I put them in full sun, where they all promptly "burned". All the xisting leaves died but it was also evident that there would be new growth. Only one plant actually died, but they were all set back.

Then there was the move I had in late July. I put the whole collection outside on the porch until I could get something set up inside. Strangley, nothing reacted the first two days. But after the third day, all of my Mexican butterworts, nearly all of the utrics, and about half the sundews reacted. Ultimately, the butterworts nearly all recovered, as did the utrics. The sundews were the worst victims of the change from window sill / closet, under artificial lighting. I was picking dead plants for weeks thereafter. The VFT's, Sarrs, and temoerate sundews did fine.

My point is that even stable, acclimated indoor plants can go into shock, if placed in direct sunlight.

Jim,
thats a good point..my plants always burn too..
(I should have mentioned that..and I have..many times before! ;)
here it is again.. :beer:

I do not consider that "shock" and I do not think "acclimating slowly" will fix the burning problem..its simply sunburn, and IMO it does not harm the plants at all.

When you buy a VFT from Home Depot or Target, the ones with the clear plastic covers, the leaves are always very UN-acclimated to direct sunlight..they will burn no matter how slowly you try to acclimate them to direct sun..they simply arent equipped to handle it.

So you stick them out in the sun..they burn..the leaves facing the sun quite literally turn brown from sunburn..new leaves come out, that have *always* been in the direct sunlight..those leaves do not burn..after a few weeks several new leaves are out, the old burned leaves are cut away..presto! the plant is now acclimated to direct sunlight! ;)

I stand by my advice:

just stick them outside in the bright light and they do great.
(VFTs and Sarrs..not Neps)

yes, some leaves will burn..
thats simply a given.
and its not a problem..and I dont think you can do anything about it..
individual leaves are expendable..the health of the plant as a whole is more important than a few burned leaves, and the plant NEEDS to be in direct sun for optimum health..
a few burned leaves must be sacrificed for the greater good.

Every spring my plants come out of dormancy in mid-February..they sit in front of sliding glass doors, indoors, to come out of dormancy..but its still too cold to put them outside for the season..spindly weak growth starts up indoors Feb-March..they get direct morning light, but not nearly as intense as outdoor light on the deck..
finally sometime in April they go outside for the season..
those first weakling leaves fry..
new growth quickly replaces the burned leaves, and the plants are off and running..
the "burning phase" is only a few weeks in April..after that all the new leaves are fine and the plants are totally acclimated to the sun
for the rest of the season.
been doing it this way for 15 years now..the plants are perfectly fine.
happens with all my VFTs and Sarrs..I dont think the burn can be prevented, and IMO and in my experience it is unnecessary to try..

Scot
 
  • #34
Every spring my plants come out of dormancy in mid-February..they sit in front of sliding glass doors, indoors, to come out of dormancy..but its still too cold to put them outside for the season..spindly weak growth starts up indoors Feb-March..they get direct morning light, but not nearly as intense as outdoor light on the deck..
finally sometime in April they go outside for the season..
those first weakling leaves fry..
new growth quickly replaces the burned leaves, and the plants are off and running..
the "burning phase" is only a few weeks in April..after that all the new leaves are fine and the plants are totally acclimated to the sun
for the rest of the season.
been doing it this way for 15 years now..the plants are perfectly fine.
happens with all my VFTs and Sarrs..I dont think the burn can be prevented, and IMO and in my experience it is unnecessary to try..

Scot

We may be doing slightly different things toward the common goal, but the concept thereof is identical. :-D
 
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