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Thread: New scientific study on the sun in global warming.

  1. #9
    herenorthere's Avatar
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    No one should be shut out of a discussion. Big problems need to be looked at from every possible direction and experts left to themselves tend to screw everything up. Such as our highway system, which is impeccably engineered but was rammed through inappropriate places and has made the US ridiculously dependent on every dictator with some petroleum underground. If only some people who didn't have the slightest idea about road construction had been allowed to have input decades ago. Now the system is falling apart while the engineers keep busy designing newer and wider roads. Experts are great tools but, in the same way a hammer doesn't get to decide where to drive the nail, experts can't be allowed to make all the decisions or to monopolize the discussion.
    Bruce in CT

    Madness is something rare in individuals but in groups, parties, peoples, ages it is the rule. Friedrich Nietzsche

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    Sorry, but that's just hopelessly naive. There's a difference between getting input from multiple sources, all of whom have different expertise, information, and goals, and letting a discussion be derailed by those who have no facts, no logic, and nothing to contribute.

    Should we let creationists decide science course content? Of course not, because they cannot bring anything of value to the discussion, but can derail it with a tide of sheer stupidity.

    Sure, experts alone tend to screw things up. I mean, look at science, it's just a bunch of experts, and what's it given us?
    Apart from cure to numerous deadly diseases,
    Tripling our life expectancy,
    Instantaneous global communications,
    The ability to fly,
    and countless more advances.

    Sorry, but I'm sick of this underdog bull. No, not everyone deserves a seat at the table, some opinions are just plain invalid, and some people's opinions are worth more than others. Deal with it.

    Mokele
    Last edited by Ozzy; 03-15-2008 at 07:51 PM.
    \"With malleus aforethought, mammals got an earful of their ancestor's jaw.\"
    --J. Burns, on the evolution of auditory ossicles.

  3. #11
    War. War never changes. Est's Avatar
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    C'mon folks you're still on page one.

    Be nice, and watch your language.
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  4. #12
    SirKristoff is a poopiehead Ozzy's Avatar
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    I think we need to keep the attacks to a minimum. Discuss the issues and not others beliefs.

    Speaking of beliefs, I have a question I've been wondering for a while. This is not an directed at anybody, just an observation at the American system.

    Why do all right wings believe that global warming is a lie? Why do left wings believe the world is ending?
    Why do the right believe that abortion is murdering a human? And the left believes that an embryo is just a group of cells?
    Right wing believes that everybody should have a gun and left wings think nobody should have them.

    Why have we become such a divided country that would rather look at onesided facts than the truth? It's like a debating match, we must prove that our side is right instead of looking for the truth.

    That is why our politicians won't get anything done. They are too busy in winning than doing the right thing. If you take the blinders off you'd see that the old saying is true, "There are two sides to every story and the truth is somewhere in the middle."

    I used to join in these discussions but I finally realized that nobody was listening. Everybody here is too busy trying to prove they are right instead of listening to what others had to say. Just like the scum that runs our country. That is why I refuse to be a democrat or a republican. They are both as narrowminded and blind to the truth as the other. Just like everybody here, they are too busy trying to win an argument then to look at the truth. They only believe the facts that will serve what they want to believe.

    I happen to agree with Ktulu and think there are just too many humans on this planet. We have figured out how to change the balance of natural to benefit ourselves at the cost of many the other inhabitants on this planet. The one thing about nature, it always wins. When a species gets out of control, natural will regain control over that species through starvation or disease. There is a song that says, "We are bringing Mother Nature to her knees" I disagree with that, instead it should say "Mother Nature will bring us to our knees".
    This climate change that we're experiencing may be natures way of getting us back under control.

  5. #13
    herenorthere's Avatar
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    I once thought like Mokele too, but a couple decades of seasoning has changed my mind. Not just for the reason I mentioned above but, last I checked, an expert's vote counts no more than anyone else's. The nation's greatest experts on some issue can get together and determine a solution to a problem and, if they piss everyone off along the way, that's a problem that's guaranteed to continue.

    That said, everyone in a debate, not just the "experts", bears the responsibility to consider others' arguments and to be open-minded. People who keep dredging up the same National Geographic article or quoting oil company-funded propaganda are preventing a real discussion. You're either being dishonest with us or with yourself.
    Bruce in CT

    Madness is something rare in individuals but in groups, parties, peoples, ages it is the rule. Friedrich Nietzsche

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    last I checked, an expert's vote counts no more than anyone else's.
    One of the system's greatest flaws, yes. And one never intended - everything was supposed to be decided by electors, who were voted on by the people only as wise men who could be trusted to make a smart choice for President.

    Even the founders of the US realized that letting the mob decide was stupid. Misogyny and racism may have been behind their decision to restrict voting to white males, but their decision to only allow property-owners to vote was based on the supposition that those individuals would be the most educated segment of society.

    Why have we become such a divided country that would rather look at onesided facts than the truth?
    Most people never want the truth, only a version that flatters their preconceptions, and this is far from modern. History books have whitewashed the past - elections between the Founding Fathers were just as dirty as now, and there are some pretty nasty campaign posters still preserved from Rome. The myth that there was ever some idyllic past where everyone listened and thought rationally is just that, myth.

    Mokele
    \"With malleus aforethought, mammals got an earful of their ancestor's jaw.\"
    --J. Burns, on the evolution of auditory ossicles.

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    What I find the most interesting about the pro-global warming crowd is that they are unwilling to look at other sources for climate change. I mean I really do understand, there is a lot riding on the Global Warming theory in the science realm and that a failure to be correct would remove some rep points but come on...

    If people really, truly, cared about the climate change they wouldn't stop at CO2 and would welcome the possibility that it could be the entity that brings this planet heat to begin with. Unless I'm mistaken there isn't a set static variable that determines how hot the sun burns, so why is it out of the realm of possibility? Why are pro-global warming crowds so fast to hush anything that isn't relative to green house gases? I think the answer is obvious.

    Mokele:

    You're article does not 100% denounce the Sun as being the culprit. Define reputable climatologists for me. Have they successfully predicted a Global Warming in the past? Are any of these reputable climatologists the same climatologists who predicted Global Cooling? We have 144,000 years of temperature recordings? That's news to me. So how warm was the Antarctic ocean 144,000 years ago? I would like to also know what tool was used to read this information, the date, the time and who did it. This is a perfect example of how unscientific the Global warming theory truly is.

    I have no problem with green, renewable energy, and support every clean form available ASAP. I have a problem with people who try to dictate what is a universal indisputable truths with a grain of salt.
    James 1:17

    "Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows."

  8. #16
    Whats it to ya? Finch's Avatar
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    While the "nobody knows better than anyone else/Experts dont know anything" is appealing, do you not take the word of an engineer when building a bridge, do you not take the word of a computer technician when you have computer problems? Climatologists study these things their whole professional careers, so it is prudent to assume they know more about climates workings than the average person. I know I assume that about the auto mechanics I bring my car to.

    If nobody knew better than anyone else, then why should I take what anybody here says about their own profession/line of work seriously, because your word doesnt count more than anyone else's. But wait, I assume you DO know quite a bit about the things you do for a living, more so than the average joe.

    Are exerts often wrong? Do bridges fail? Are there such things as design flaws? Yes, obviously. But because a profession can be wrong sometimes is no reason to assume that therefore they cant get anything right.

    Could global warming be wrong? Perhaps, but its a generally a consensus that it is true by climatologists, or, the people who study the effects in question for a living. Of course they could be wrong, but they know more about the stuff than anyone else also.

    The think about experts is you have to attack the position and the science itself to make points disputing the general scientific body of knowledge. What do we really know about the human body, modern medicine doesnt know anything more than a witch doctor. Or, what do invasive species biologists really know about ecosystems, they are so complex.


    Thats my two cents for this discussion. Please lets be civil... If things start to get nasty I will ask that this thread to be closed because we dont need another smashfest. I almost regret posting this already.
    that makes no logic

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