Alright. You and me. Right here right now.
Alright. You and me. Right here right now.
'My love was science- specifically biology and, more specifically, when placed in a common jar, which of two organisms would devour the other.'
See You Space Cowboy
how do you know its not true?
the fact that you have not personally deflasked any mutations is irrelevant.
you actually dont know how many mutations are from TC and how many are not..
so you are just guessing too..
I understand your point..but your point is just guesswork.
you might be right..you might be wrong.
all I know is that the increase in mutations came along at the same time as the increase in TC..are those facts related? maybe..maybe not.
but it seems a lot more likely to favor the "TC causes more mutations" theory.
if it is just a coincidence, its a big coincidence!
unless anyone has any factual data to support either position, this discussion is pretty useless..
for the purposes of this discussion, the end result is still "TC equals more mutations"..
which I thought you were arguing against?
Its funny that you mention seed grown N. Rajah plants. While it would certainly be a good thing if seed grown rajahs became available (esp. for the anti-tc crowd), it would not matter much.
A central platform of the anti-TC movement is that seedgrown plants are more genetically diverse, and thus "easier" in the sense that certain seed-selected clones may turn out stronger and more tolerant than what the TC wholesalers are distributing. Many anti-tc folks have the beleif that the well-known difficulty of certain nepenthes (such as aristo, hamata etc.) may just be the result of putting a weak clone into tc.
Among Nepenthes, N.rajah is the poster child for genetic uniformity. Even if seed grown N.rajah plants were distributed someday, I doubt that a dramatically easier, or more attractive clone would surface.
Which would imply that the people who TC these plants deliberately select the weakest clones to sell. OK, makes perfect sense to me .. not. Actually the opposite is true. Unless you think it's some big conspiracy, in which case I'll tell you to lock your doors so the Masons can't kidnap your children in the night.
These plants are not difficult because the clones are weak. These plants are difficult because they grow in an area with VERY specific conditions. If you can provide those conditions, however, voila! They suddenly are not so difficult. I can only think of three plants which almost everyone has a hard time with, and that which just about everything has been tried without too much success. N. pervillei, N. madagascariensis, and N. vieillardii. It is not my opinion that these are weak clones because people HAVE grown them successfully, it may just be some underlying issue that people have had bad luck with them in general. Perhaps they require some trace element that they are not provided with. We don't really know at this point.
Diversity is a good thing. It's VERY good! Don't get me wrong. I'd like to see the market flooded with seed grown plants. I just think it's silly to be anti-TC when you can produce an unlimited amount of identical plants (I'd like to point out now that when you buy seed grown plants, you don't always know what you'll get if it's not mature. Some people like to know EXACTLY what they will get, and that's not a bad thing whatsoever.) I think it's funny that without TC, the people who argue that TC is inferior would never have gotten to where they are now as hobbyist without it.
TC can produce mutations. Of course it can. Mutations can arise out of seed grown material, too. The word "mutation" has a very negative connotation. Most mutations are harmless, while some are beneficial either for the plant or for the aesthetics, and in some cases, particularly seen in Dionaea, beneficial for the aesthetics (Well... to some connoisseurs) at the expense of the vigor. That said, we're still asking if TC produces MORE mutations when performed by QUALIFIED people in this area of expertise. I'm not talking about Joe Schmoe adding too much of X hormone in his kitchen, I'm talking about professionals in a real laboratory. If there are so many mutations, where ARE they? PLEASE, let me see this great multitude of mutations of almost biblical proportions (by the way the anti-TC people make it sound) and I'll humbly concede.
One of the complaints is that some plants commercially available are just one clone. I agree. We should have more than one single clone available. This is why a small amount of seed should be collected with the proper documentation and put into TC, then the best and brightest should be selected and the rest eliminated, because the diversity found in seed is not always a good thing as some are better than others.
I had a huge thing typed up and it disappeared.
Anyway Scotty is right. The fact that you didn't personally deflask any abberant growth/mutations is totally irrelevant. Because you haven't seem them doesn't mean they don't exist, because they certainly do. If you say TC doesn't cause any whatsoever, or at least mass propagate defects, you're not involved enough in the nep community.
BE's diatas and densiflora have fertility issues, and IIRC there is a mutation in the number of bracts. There are 2 different mutated ventratas running around (the one Glider had, and another "palm tree" looking one). BE's ramispina has a "hunch" in the back right under where the lid attaches that makes the plant look like garbage. Other mass produced neps have fertility issues too (think DeRoose). TC plants produce basals earlier and more often than they should (BE's rajahs), variegated plants most frequently come out of TC, overdose of auxins/cytokinins makes some horrendous growth, base analogs screw things up, and lastly...95% of TC clones are males. LOL! The ratio of males to females in the wild is about 5:1...so you're telling me the ratio of about 30:1 males to females from TC is "coincidence"? Let's get serious!
TC also takes forever, the clone sometimes doesn't represent anywhere NEAR the species's altitudinal range (tentaculata) or natural variation (raff/amp/mirabilis/alata/I could go on), sometimes has a single clone of a species which is very difficult to grow (pervillei/madagascariensis/mapuluensis/I could go on). Someone big has oft said "I felt that one clone best represented the species". Are you kidding me? Nepenthes are dioecious, and even in a single species there is an insane amount of natural variation.
I think TC and seed grown material should work in concert, but that can't happen until there is a responsible lab that actually selects the best clones, and keeps multiple clones of a single species. Besides MT back in the day, labs have yet to do this.
Myths also exist in favor of TC too....like the fact that mericulturing Nepenthes isn't possible. Please! There are multiple scientific journal articles on it, and it's been possible since at least '94. Another reason people are speaking out against TC is that for years it's been shoved down everyone's throats that TC is so incredibly awesome and the answer to all of life's problems, which is certainly not the case. There are problems with it, and instead of getting defensive and angry, these labs need to listen to their customers and fix what's wrong. I love natural variation and watching things grow from seed, and especially natural variation (which will never exist in TC like it will in a batch of seed). I know they're essentially the same since it is really micropropagation in this sense, but a lab will never release 300 different clones. If you don't think there are problems caused by TC and inherent to it, you're simply not involved enough in the nep community - end of story.
Speaking out against TC isn't a fad or a scapegoat, its just that lots of people are finally seeing the benefits of seed, and realizing that it is not hard at all (as they had been told for years). Remember when people didn't want to fertilize because they had been lied to for years that it would instantly kill their plants? Same thing (more or less). People are seeing the benefits of not listening to the lies that have been mass propagated, and are acting out on it.
Rainforest - love him or hate him, he's one of the top 10 growers in the world, and has either the biggest, or second biggest (after *******) collection in the US. Even ******* labels him as "the most innovative and controversial grower on the scene today". The guy has literally thousands of plants, of multiple clones and from seed. Nothing that comes out of his mouth is unfounded. The guy has more experience than you and I combined ever will, so dismiss what he says as "crazy" or "fanatical" is truly a joke.
Z polski y dumny
Prayer - how to do nothing and still think you're helping.
And is there really a "anti-TC movement "?
If there is, I have never heard of them before this thread..
Yes, im strongly against the VFT "mutants"..I would prefer they dont exist.
but that does not make me "anti-TC"..
TC isnt a problem..I just dont like the propogation of the mutants.
if it were up to me, they would be destroyed whenever they are discovered.
I consider them unworthy, lesser VFTs..and I dont like the idea of them messing up the main VFT gene pool.
(if you like the mutants, thats fine, grow and enjoy them.. but please dont breed them! propagate them vegetatively only..)
as I have said..I am also against Bulldogs, Persian Cats and Parrot Cichlids.
I dont like the idea of any creature (or plant) being horribly disfigured on purpose just for our amusement..
Now, Now Ron. I didn't say any names, you did :P This person may be a master grower, and may have a gargantuan collection, but that does not mean what he says is gospel just because it comes out of his mouth. The size of his collection is pretty irrelevant. He has done nothing except complain about the current "regime" if you will, and has not backed up his claims with hard proof. I'd like to say I do not hate him at all. I don't hate anyone. I give him much respect as a grower, I just think in this area he's a bit fanatical about it and does not back anything up. He's certainly got a fervent passion, for sure! I'd rather have had his name not mentioned since he's not really here, but it's VERY hard to separate him from this issue. They are mutually intertwined at this point.
I agree. a selection of over 300 clones of a single species would be great. That's also unrealistic. This is an obscure hobby in general, and the Nepenthes aficionado's are an even smaller part of an obscure hobby. I really feel lucky enough that we have wholesalers of something besides N. ventrata in the first place. You don't know how thankful and appreciative I am that people like Rob do what they do. Without them, I wouldn't be typing this now and almost all of you wouldn't be reading this right now. Think of the money and space it would take to do what you suggest. It's impractical.
Back up your claims. Tell me how I can procure a, for all purposes, limitless number of plants from a relatively few seeds. I can not do this EXCEPT with TC. THIS is what is great about TC. Please tell me how all seed-grown plants can possibly compete with this. They can't. I've got a REALLY good anecdote. It took me 4 years to find a domestic source for N. campanulata. The plants I found were all clones. Can you imagine how long it would have taken to get SEED grown plants from this species, which is reportedly tricky to pollinate in the first place?
I couldn't agree more with the altitudinal range comment. For some reason, no one ever collects a bit of material to TC from the lower end of the range. I can't fathom why not. They'd be able to sell to people who can't provide the proper conditions. There is IMMENSE variation in Nepenthes, but the space issue to grow 300 clones in vitro is monetarily and spatially impractical. On the other hand, all seed-grown plants can not provide the sheer numbers that TC can. This is why both can AND should coexist simultaneously. I can't support more seed-grown plants enough! I just think it's lunacy to think you can try and replace it, no matter HOW big your collection is. It can not and will not be done.
Lets take a look at EP. Fantastic company with fantastic plants, most of which are seed grown. Look at their current inventory list of what's available. Enough said.
You can't argue with the sheer quantity that TC provides, and if somehow a bract happens to be deformed (whether it was TC-induced or not), most people just don't care. YES mutations happen, but they aren't really a big deal and a lot of the issues could be eliminated if more clones (but CERTAINLY not enough to satisfy the most hardcore variety-demanding growers) could be in vitro. The hump as seen in some N. ramispina is not a lovely lady lump, as Fergie Ferg says, but some people like it. I gave my plant away because of it, and my trash was his treasure. Variegated plants would produce a pretty nice demand if they could be TC'd, and the prolific basal production is most definitely a good thing in almost everyone's eyes. You say these like they are bad things.
I have not seen the "Palm Tree" Nepenthes. I'd like to. I actually like a rosette on a stalk, and if a plant that I liked enough to purchase before any mutations could have a mutation so that it would consistently grow in this manner (not vine, which is what I'm assuming you mean given the nickname :P ), I'd gladly pay two, three, or perhaps even four times the price for it!
I can not comment on the gender issue as I've really never looked into it. I have always gone by the 3/1 ratio of males per female.
JMatt's thread. Even in this thread, after it was said multiple times that it was seed grown, people were still saying TC-related issues. I do see the TC-related comments quite often in posts about Nepenthes problems.
"The tragedy of life is not that every man loses; but that he almost wins."
"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?"
I'm only following this in a general way, but...wouldn't the ratio of mutated plants be higher in TC simply because of the larger number of plants produced by TC? For example...if out of 60 wild nep seeds, 10 found conditions suitable to growing and germinated with no mutants...vs. 60 of 60 TC seeds germinating and there being 1 out of the 60 mutated. Made up figures but...it just seems "natural" (ha) that by sheer volume, TC would produce more mutated plants.
But I don't know nuthin'.
"Fox terriers are born with about four times as much original sin in them as other dogs." - Jerome K. Jerome