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Thread: TC defects: The latest bugbear of CP growers?

  1. #17
    scottychaos's Avatar
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    And is there really a "anti-TC movement "?
    If there is, I have never heard of them before this thread..

    Yes, im strongly against the VFT "mutants"..I would prefer they dont exist.
    but that does not make me "anti-TC"..
    TC isnt a problem..I just dont like the propogation of the mutants.
    if it were up to me, they would be destroyed whenever they are discovered.
    I consider them unworthy, lesser VFTs..and I dont like the idea of them messing up the main VFT gene pool.

    (if you like the mutants, thats fine, grow and enjoy them.. but please dont breed them! propagate them vegetatively only..)

    as I have said..I am also against Bulldogs, Persian Cats and Parrot Cichlids.
    I dont like the idea of any creature (or plant) being horribly disfigured on purpose just for our amusement..

    Scot

  2. #18
    Stay chooned in for more! Clint's Avatar
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    Now, Now Ron. I didn't say any names, you did :P This person may be a master grower, and may have a gargantuan collection, but that does not mean what he says is gospel just because it comes out of his mouth. The size of his collection is pretty irrelevant. He has done nothing except complain about the current "regime" if you will, and has not backed up his claims with hard proof. I'd like to say I do not hate him at all. I don't hate anyone. I give him much respect as a grower, I just think in this area he's a bit fanatical about it and does not back anything up. He's certainly got a fervent passion, for sure! I'd rather have had his name not mentioned since he's not really here, but it's VERY hard to separate him from this issue. They are mutually intertwined at this point.

    I agree. a selection of over 300 clones of a single species would be great. That's also unrealistic. This is an obscure hobby in general, and the Nepenthes aficionado's are an even smaller part of an obscure hobby. I really feel lucky enough that we have wholesalers of something besides N. ventrata in the first place. You don't know how thankful and appreciative I am that people like Rob do what they do. Without them, I wouldn't be typing this now and almost all of you wouldn't be reading this right now. Think of the money and space it would take to do what you suggest. It's impractical.

    Back up your claims. Tell me how I can procure a, for all purposes, limitless number of plants from a relatively few seeds. I can not do this EXCEPT with TC. THIS is what is great about TC. Please tell me how all seed-grown plants can possibly compete with this. They can't. I've got a REALLY good anecdote. It took me 4 years to find a domestic source for N. campanulata. The plants I found were all clones. Can you imagine how long it would have taken to get SEED grown plants from this species, which is reportedly tricky to pollinate in the first place?

    I couldn't agree more with the altitudinal range comment. For some reason, no one ever collects a bit of material to TC from the lower end of the range. I can't fathom why not. They'd be able to sell to people who can't provide the proper conditions. There is IMMENSE variation in Nepenthes, but the space issue to grow 300 clones in vitro is monetarily and spatially impractical. On the other hand, all seed-grown plants can not provide the sheer numbers that TC can. This is why both can AND should coexist simultaneously. I can't support more seed-grown plants enough! I just think it's lunacy to think you can try and replace it, no matter HOW big your collection is. It can not and will not be done.

    Lets take a look at EP. Fantastic company with fantastic plants, most of which are seed grown. Look at their current inventory list of what's available. Enough said.

    You can't argue with the sheer quantity that TC provides, and if somehow a bract happens to be deformed (whether it was TC-induced or not), most people just don't care. YES mutations happen, but they aren't really a big deal and a lot of the issues could be eliminated if more clones (but CERTAINLY not enough to satisfy the most hardcore variety-demanding growers) could be in vitro. The hump as seen in some N. ramispina is not a lovely lady lump, as Fergie Ferg says, but some people like it. I gave my plant away because of it, and my trash was his treasure. Variegated plants would produce a pretty nice demand if they could be TC'd, and the prolific basal production is most definitely a good thing in almost everyone's eyes. You say these like they are bad things.

    I have not seen the "Palm Tree" Nepenthes. I'd like to. I actually like a rosette on a stalk, and if a plant that I liked enough to purchase before any mutations could have a mutation so that it would consistently grow in this manner (not vine, which is what I'm assuming you mean given the nickname :P ), I'd gladly pay two, three, or perhaps even four times the price for it!

    I can not comment on the gender issue as I've really never looked into it. I have always gone by the 3/1 ratio of males per female.

  3. #19
    Doing it wrong until I do it right. xvart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phissionkorps View Post
    BE's diatas and densiflora have fertility issues, and IIRC there is a mutation in the number of bracts. There are 2 different mutated ventratas running around (the one Glider had, and another "palm tree" looking one). BE's ramispina has a "hunch" in the back right under where the lid attaches that makes the plant look like garbage. Other mass produced neps have fertility issues too (think DeRoose). TC plants produce basals earlier and more often than they should (BE's rajahs), variegated plants most frequently come out of TC, overdose of auxins/cytokinins makes some horrendous growth, base analogs screw things up, and lastly...95% of TC clones are males. LOL! The ratio of males to females in the wild is about 5:1...so you're telling me the ratio of about 30:1 males to females from TC is "coincidence"? Let's get serious!
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but the way I read Pyro's comment was more along the lines of freak "errors" happenings to Nepenthes often times get labeled as "TC issues or chemicals." For example, JMatt's thread. Even in this thread, after it was said multiple times that it was seed grown, people were still saying TC-related issues. I do see the TC-related comments quite often in posts about Nepenthes problems.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pyro View Post
    More and more of late I have been seeing what can only be described as an anti-TC movement among the CP community. And I am more than a little curious to know where this is coming from.
    In all honesty, I don't think it is an anti-TC movement; but rather people who do not necessarily know what they are talking about remembering a recent post where someone else said that TC can cause weird problems or mutations, and that that could be the case in the new example. When in all reality, it very well, and probably was, caused by some environmental condition or pest.

    xvart.
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  4. #20
    Moderator Schmoderator Fluorescent fluorite, England PlantAKiss's Avatar
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    I'm only following this in a general way, but...wouldn't the ratio of mutated plants be higher in TC simply because of the larger number of plants produced by TC? For example...if out of 60 wild nep seeds, 10 found conditions suitable to growing and germinated with no mutants...vs. 60 of 60 TC seeds germinating and there being 1 out of the 60 mutated. Made up figures but...it just seems "natural" (ha) that by sheer volume, TC would produce more mutated plants.

    But I don't know nuthin'.
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  5. #21
    Doing it wrong until I do it right. xvart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PlantAKiss View Post
    Made up figures but...it just seems "natural" (ha) that by sheer volume, TC would produce more mutated plants.

    But I don't know nuthin'.
    I think they are referring to the mutations being a result of TC and the chemicals and processes; not reproducing mutated material to begin with. The biggest thing, as I mentioned above but in more detail now, is that many people say that the chemicals and hormones boost some area of growth which is what causes the mutations. For example, if you have a flask of 100 Nepenthes and 6 of them get an extra dose of whatever hormone, they will mutate (or have a higher chance of mutating) whereas the others will not.

    That example further supports the notion that inexperienced TC-ers will produce more mutated plants than "experts" because of the chemical and hormone distribution.

    For the record, I have never participated in any reproduction via TC, so pardon me if my examples are not 100% accurate in method and follow-through.

    xvart.
    "The tragedy of life is not that every man loses; but that he almost wins."

    "Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?"

  6. #22
    Moderator Schmoderator Fluorescent fluorite, England PlantAKiss's Avatar
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    Yeah. I knew that. I wasn't talking about TCing the mutants. I'm talking about just "odds" by volume. Most CPs don't have the reproduction rate naturally that TCing does. So by sheer volume, it seems like you'd have more mutants which wouldn't neccessarily have anything to do with chemicals.
    Last edited by PlantAKiss; 04-10-2008 at 01:47 PM. Reason: Can I ever make a post without typos?
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  7. #23

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    Germinating seed in vitro vs. in compost have roughly the same germination rates, but germinating them in vitro takes much longer. It's normal for them to take 6 months in vitro, while I get most germination on compost in 3-5 weeks.

    When you micropropagate clones, if you have 10 seeds germinate, and 1 of them has some inherent problem with it, it will be reproduced (at least at the early stage) with all the rest. When the lab discovers the problem, they should immediately destroy the clone, but as per my listed examples, it seems no one is responsible enough to do that at this point (or they just want to sell them off and make money more than they want to keep the gene pool "clean").

    Before I have to continue explaining stuff I've already covered at least a hundred times, scroll down to my long reply in this thread: http://petpitcher.proboards61.com/in...0970509&page=1
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  8. #24
    CPlantaholic's Avatar
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    I just had a quick question...
    It has seemed to me that many of the mutations that occur from imbalanced hormones in TC seem to go away after an extended period (3 or more years) of being grown in normal CP media. I think a lot of times the problem is that people see the mutation and think it will be permanent, when it could really go away after propagating it normally for a while.
    However, I'm sure there are times that the mutation lasts even when grown normally for the extended period of time. My question is: how often does it occur that the mutation remains after grown for 4+ years normally and its mutated trait is able to be passed down genetically?
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