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Thread: NY Police free to kill again

  1. #17
    Nepenthes's Avatar
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    I have so much to say but so little time... Basically a significant amount of cops abuse their power, because power corrupts. A few of them, even street cops, are actually intelligent and respectful people however. I remember meeting one in particular who was exceptionally intelligent and mindful of civil rights, however he was getting ready to retire after not having been promoted from a street cop his entire career. When I asked him why that was, he told me it was because he didn't go along with all the corruption that the other officers did. I know he was highly intelligent because I had the opportunity to talk with him for many hours, so it couldn't be that he failed the tests, because they're not rocket science. Anyway, this type of crap happens EVERY single day. It usually doesn't receive this much media attention and it doesn't always end in gross-overkill, but it always points to excessive force.

    On a side note... Oliver, the genius that squeezed off 31 rounds, had to have reloaded and emptied another clip into the guy... unless he had an extended 9mm clip in a glock, which would just be ridiculous anyway.
    - Daniel

  2. #18
    herenorthere's Avatar
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    Plenty of police officers are smart, whether they've been to college or not or never got better than a C in high school. I've known plenty of PhDs and can't think of many (any?) that I'd want to see being a cop. The job requires a different set of skills and a different way of thinking. As Nepenthes said, power corrupts, especially those don't have the morals and self-awareness to resist. It doesn't matter whether it's the cop on the street, a professor lording over a class/grad student, or a corporate CEO. It can happen to any of them. It doesn't even need to be much power, think about the stereotype of the person behind the counter at the Dept. of Motor Vehicles. The trouble is that cops have guns and do seem to carry get out of jail free cards.
    Bruce in CT

    Madness is something rare in individuals but in groups, parties, peoples, ages it is the rule. Friedrich Nietzsche

  3. #19
    Let's positive thinking! seedjar's Avatar
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    The problems I have with the cops' side of this story are as follows:
    - If the suspects were talking about going to get a gun out of their car, shouldn't the officers have found one in the ensuing investigation?
    - Why do the accounts of both the defense and witnesses say the officers never identified themselves? (Could it be that, being far enough away from a speeding car to fire 31 rounds before it reaches you, the driver of that car perhaps might not be able to tell that you're pointing a gun at them because you're an UNDERCOVER OFFICER?!)
    - The police weren't there investigating Bell or his friends. If they were, you can bet it would've come up in court, and it would've totally changed the precedents involved. I don't know NYPD procedures, but I believe it was pretty far outside of the officers' assignment to use such great force with so little information about the situation. Weren't they there under the presumption that this establishment was party to some sort of criminal activity? What happened to that investigation? You can bet the real crooks have long since packed up and found a better front.
    - Killing is killing. If a guy broke into my house and I mistakenly thought he had a weapon and went to defend myself with lethal force, there's pretty much a 0% chance that I'll get away without any charges placed on me. Even if he did have a weapon, I might still be liable if he ends up being the one who dies. It's one thing to call this case "not murder," or to aim for reduced sentencing in the understanding that law enforcement officers are placed in some really tough spots as a part of the job. But to just let them walk away free, with no disciplinary action whatsoever, really speaks poorly of the system. "OK, go serve the people. Take this gun and, if people happen to get shot, it shouldn't be a problem." Regardless of whether or not any individual cop is good or bad, it's simply terrible policy. Beyond being an absurd double-standard that is unconstitutional to the core, it makes the police look really horrible in the eyes of the public.
    All ethical judgments aside, the police are no good whatsoever if the general public cannot trust and rely upon their benevolence and good judgment. Any actions that undermine the reputation of the police are unacceptable, for they simply cause greater civil unrest and through it more crime and disorder. Police are not merely enforcers of the law, but public representatives of it; if the public is made to fear the police, then the law too becomes something to be avoided and reviled. It is simply necessary to maintain a positive standing between the public and authorities; to do otherwise is antithetical to the purpose of law and police. Being that they are the ones who presume to offer the service of law enforcement, it is naturally the police that have the power to affect this relationship, for good or for bad.
    ~Joe

    PS - On the issue of bad cops; in my experience, most cops are genuinely good, tolerant people. The job definitely attracts a higher-than-normal ratio of jerks, but besides for some bad attitude issues most of them have their heart in the right place. However, a bad cop is a truly terrifying thing, and the system is ripe for exploitation. I think the abuses of bad cops, plus the waste and mistakes caused by those "mediocre" cops, arguably outweighs what good is done. This is not to say that we should do away with police; merely, the system needs profound reformation. Checks and balances, please!
    o//~ Livin' like a bug ain't easy / My old clothes don't seem to fit me /
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  4. #20
    Cardiac Nurse JB_OrchidGuy's Avatar
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    Well I will be one to tell you if it were me I would not have stopped firering my gun until the guy stopped trying to run my partner over or he was dead. You try to run me or my partner over then I am going to subdue you. I cannot do anything to a car but I can do something to you. If you keep going then I keep pumping. So I don;t blame him for firering 31 shots if that is what it took to get him to stop.

    These cops were damned if they do and damned if they don't. Had they not done nothing and a gun fight ensured and the public knew they were there then they would have been asked why nothing happened, but when they did do something and it meant killing someone to subdue him because he was trying to run down a cop, then they get jumped on too.

    Had the guys not been trying to pick up a hooker in a shade scuzzy strip joint and trying to act all hard when she denied them they wouldn't be where they are today. I am sorry, but a lot of harassment comes from the harassed party doing something to draw attention to themselves to begin with. Even when I claimed to be harassed I knew I was doing something to get in trouble for to begin with.

    Nate I am sorry bro, I don;t see it with you on this one. 50 shots is not excessive if it takes that many shots to get him to stop or somehow subdued. When your in that type of situation where it is a split second decision, you cannot tell me you would not be in the mindset it is me or them and I am going to do anything in my power to make sure it is not me. These cops had no idea what they had in the car. They heard that they said they were going to get a gun. Your undercover. That alone can bring a threat to your life, and now there is guns involved your going to be even more ready to protect yourself. I am sorry, but I do not think anyone here has been in a situation like this, including myself, to actually know what they would do or what should have been done. We all can speculate, but unless you have been put into a life or death situation you me or anyone else has absolutely no Fing clue.
    JB
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  5. #21

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    Ok, physics 101: shooting someone in a car is stupid movie crap.

    If a car is going to hit you in a few seconds, even if you draw, fire, and blow the driver's head to bits, the sheer momentum will still make you roadkill. A car with a dead driver will just keep moving however fast it was going. Sure, it'll slow or veer *eventually*, but if you're far enough away for either of those possibilities, you didn't need to shoot.

    I'm not saying the cops were wrong or right, I'm saying they've watched *WAY* too many action movies. I'd like to hear any incidence where shooting the driver of a moving vehicle seconds away from splattering you has done a damned bit of good, rather than simply demonstrating a fatal lack of understanding of basic physics.

    Mokele
    \"With malleus aforethought, mammals got an earful of their ancestor's jaw.\"
    --J. Burns, on the evolution of auditory ossicles.

  6. #22
    Let's positive thinking! seedjar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mokele View Post
    Ok, physics 101: shooting someone in a car is stupid movie crap.
    Also, law enforcement 101: recruits learn this in basic handgun training (or at least, it's in the training; whether or not they listened...)

    If a car is going to hit you in a few seconds, even if you draw, fire, and blow the driver's head to bits, the sheer momentum will still make you roadkill. A car with a dead driver will just keep moving however fast it was going. Sure, it'll slow or veer *eventually*, but if you're far enough away for either of those possibilities, you didn't need to shoot.
    Not to mention that if you do have time to hit the target, you've just put everyone in the area at risk by incapacitating the vehicle's driver. Now the car is under the control of someone's death throes; obviously, MUCH better than someone who may or may not have had a rational reason for driving at you. Good thing you gave up your opportunity to dodge.

    Thank you for your ever cogent contributions, Mokele.
    ~Joe
    o//~ Livin' like a bug ain't easy / My old clothes don't seem to fit me /
    I got little tiny bug feet / I don't really know what bugs eat /
    Don't want no one steppin' on me / Now I'm sympathizin' with fleas /
    Livin' like a bug ain't easy / Livin' like a bug ain't easy... o//~

  7. #23
    Cardiac Nurse JB_OrchidGuy's Avatar
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    JB
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  8. #24
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    News Flash:

    Cars can be used as weapons. Don't try and use a weapon against a police officer.

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