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Thread: Father/daughter Talk

  1. #81
    Cardiac Nurse JB_OrchidGuy's Avatar
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    You keep saying 10% but it has got to be more than that Alien. Also they are profitable because oil is a necessity. We have no choice but to buy it and they are conspiring with each other creating something like a monopoly. But keeping the supply low, they can increase the price of the oil that is put on the market.
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    If you think they're only making 10%, you're either hilariously misinformed, or joking. Where'd you get that 404 and 40 billion from anyway? This is from an article from 2005, when prices were much lower than now:

    ExxonMobil Corp. reported $10 billion in net income in the third quarter, the largest ever by a U.S. energy company.

    ExxonMobil's earnings announcement that profits rose 75 percent from last year followed a BP announcement of $6.5 billion in profits, up 34 percent and ConocoPhillips reporting its income grew to $3.8 billion, up 89 percent.
    This is an article from this year:

    BP yesterday reported a staggering 63 percent surge in first quarter net profit to $7.6 billion, and Royal Dutch Shell posted a 25 percent increase to $9.1 billion. Last week, ConocoPhillips reported a 16 percent rise in net income to $4.1 billion.
    And those are FIRST QUARTER net profits, not for all year. If they do at least that well in every other quarter (and you KNOW they will, since prices will continue to go up), thats 30.4BILLION for Exxon, etc, this year alone.

    Your argument = FAIL
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  3. #83
    Alien1099's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phissionkorps View Post
    If you think they're only making 10%, you're either hilariously misinformed, or joking. Where'd you get that 404 and 40 billion from anyway? This is from an article from 2005, when prices were much lower than now:
    You pretty much fail at math. But I'm the one who's wrong, right?

    Reread your quote. 10 billion in the 3rd quarter. What is a quarter? It's 1/4.

    1/4 (quarter) x 4 (# of quarters) = 1 year

    10 billion x 4 = 40 billion

    (40 profit / 404 revenue) * 100 (to move the decimal to represent a percentage) = 9.9% profit margin

    Their total revenue was 404 billion in 2007 with a profit of 40 billion. That's right around 10% profit rate.

    You throw around these large percentages as if they mean something. The base price of fuel is up as is demand. If you are selling more fuel than ever and the price of the fuel has gone up, then yes you are going to see a large increase in profit if you don't lower your profit margin.

    A few years ago they may have sold 200 billion worth of fuel with a 20 billion profit, and today it's 400 billion in revenue and 40 billion in profit, a 50% increase in total profit, but that's STILL a 10% profit margin!

    I must be a complete freaking idiot that cannot perform simple arithmetic after reading the above post (that is sarcasm) because I'm pulling these numbers from the Securities and Exchanges Commission's website:

    http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/da...41781/d10k.htm

    Which are the numbers referenced on Wikipedia's page for ExonnMobil.

    0.25 x 4 no longer equals 1 folks! You heard it here first!

  4. #84
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    Alien, you're not going to win many arguments by this style of "argumentum ad ridiculum". Some of us are actually fairly well read and actually fact-check.

    The "profit" figures you cite betray your own case. When computing profit, you make two critical errors:

    1) You imply that since the net profit is a certain percentage of gross revenues, that their profits haven't really changed. But they have. Part of the "revenues" include paying OPEC for a barrel of oil. That cost is directly passed on to the customer, and has no net effect on oil companies. But that cost is responsible almost entirely for the increased cost at the pump. That the net profit of oil companies has STAYED the same percentage of gross revenues means that they have increased their profits 400% since gas hit $1/gallon. A 400% increase in profits based on what? Gouging. Nothing more.

    2) The numbers don't mean much anyway. The "net profit" is that money left over after their executives have feasted upon the buffet of revenues. The picture I showed before was of the ex-CEO of Exxon, Lee Raymond. He recently retired, and got a golden parachute worth $400million. Sure, his tenure made the company a boatload of money. But how? By improving service? No. By innovating? No. By taking risks and making substantial investments? No! They made it by simply by jacking up prices. That's your capitalism at work. They used their monopolistic powers to artificially jack up prices. That's the magic for which they got their reward.

    Finally, even McCain has admitted we fought Iraq for control of oil. It was a goal published in the Project for the New American Century papers for everyone to see. http://www.newamericancentury.org/ If that's a "conspiracy", call me a conspiracy buff. I suppose you think we invaded because we were worried about their stockpiles of WMDs? Really?

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  5. #85

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    I agree with everyone that the price of gasoline needs to be reigned in if the economy is going to stop imploding. A windfall profit tax is only going to make a difference if its 100% above a certain amount. I am not against such a tax but even 20% of 40 billions dollars is a large profit.

    One thing I have noticed no one has mentioned here is the effect of a weak American dollar on the price of oil. Last time I checked a good deal of oil used in the US comes form those other pretty colored places on those things called maps. As long as we deal in an international market a week dollar is going to make anything we buy form overseas more expensive. This factor as a whole is impacting our economy as we buy many things including food from overseas. This is a major factor that should be dealt as well as looking for ways to prevent ridiculous profits on vital products.
    Last edited by ktulu; 05-14-2008 at 02:35 PM. Reason: I can't spell
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  6. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by phissionkorps View Post
    If you think they're only making 10%, you're either hilariously misinformed, or joking. Where'd you get that 404 and 40 billion from anyway? This is from an article from 2005, when prices were much lower than now:



    This is an article from this year:



    And those are FIRST QUARTER net profits, not for all year. If they do at least that well in every other quarter (and you KNOW they will, since prices will continue to go up), thats 30.4BILLION for Exxon, etc, this year alone.

    Your argument = FAIL
    Quote Originally Posted by Capslock View Post
    Alien, you're not going to win many arguments by this style of "argumentum ad ridiculum". Some of us are actually fairly well read and actually fact-check.

    The "profit" figures you cite betray your own case. When computing profit, you make two critical errors:

    1) You imply that since the net profit is a certain percentage of gross revenues, that their profits haven't really changed. But they have. Part of the "revenues" include paying OPEC for a barrel of oil. That cost is directly passed on to the customer, and has no net effect on oil companies. But that cost is responsible almost entirely for the increased cost at the pump. That the net profit of oil companies has STAYED the same percentage of gross revenues means that they have increased their profits 400% since gas hit $1/gallon. A 400% increase in profits based on what? Gouging. Nothing more.

    2) The numbers don't mean much anyway. The "net profit" is that money left over after their executives have feasted upon the buffet of revenues. The picture I showed before was of the ex-CEO of Exxon, Lee Raymond. He recently retired, and got a golden parachute worth $400million. Sure, his tenure made the company a boatload of money. But how? By improving service? No. By innovating? No. By taking risks and making substantial investments? No! They made it by simply by jacking up prices. That's your capitalism at work. They used their monopolistic powers to artificially jack up prices. That's the magic for which they got their reward.

    Finally, even McCain has admitted we fought Iraq for control of oil. It was a goal published in the Project for the New American Century papers for everyone to see. http://www.newamericancentury.org/ If that's a "conspiracy", call me a conspiracy buff. I suppose you think we invaded because we were worried about their stockpiles of WMDs? Really?

    Capslock
    The CEO's salary, bonuses, and benefits are between them and the company's board of directors as well as the shareholders. Do you own shares of ExxonMobil? If you don't, you don't really have a leg to stand on when complaining about his salary and bonuses. ExxonMobil was incredibly profitable under his tenure and he obviously did a decent job of running the company. If that's what the board agrees to, then that's what he gets. And are we to no longer consider CEO salaries as part of the overall operating expenses of a company like anybody else's? If you don't like how much ExxonMobil pays their execs, don't buy their gas. Buy BP's or some other company's.

    And not to be too insulting, but for somebody who said they were well read, you didn't read what I typed. I never said their profits have stayed the same. Profits is a rather ambiguous term, and I specifically mentioned their profit margin has stayed the same, while their net profit has increased. This is very explicitly explained in my post.

    Why is $0.10 profit per $1.00 in revenue unacceptable? HOW is this gouging? In most any other industry, that is terrible. I'd really a convincing argument on why they should only make say $0.05 for every $1.00 in product they sell, even though that won't greatly influence the price anybody pays for fuel enough to make a noticeable difference. They sell a lot of product. They have a 10% profit margin. Big deal. Even if gas hits $5.00 a gallon and you take away ALL of their profit, you'll still be paying $4.50. I'm sure you will say that just means the CEOs are getting even more money though.

  7. #87
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    OK, I just wanted to make it clear that when you pay $4 for a gallon of gas, that's four times more "profit" than you paid each gallon just a few short years ago, and that doesn't even include things like $400million exit packages for the execs who jacked up the profits in the first place. I wonder how much of that $4 is for another yacht for Mr. Raymond? Woohoo unregulated capitalism!

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  8. #88
    Alien1099's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Capslock View Post
    OK, I just wanted to make it clear that when you pay $4 for a gallon of gas, that's four times more "profit" than you paid each gallon just a few short years ago, and that doesn't even include things like $400million exit packages for the execs who jacked up the profits in the first place. I wonder how much of that $4 is for another yacht for Mr. Raymond? Woohoo unregulated capitalism!

    Capslock
    Capitalism works. Period. It is a self correcting system.

    You need only look for a successful communist/socialist country to see how well they work. Communism and socialism only punish those that are successful or that "can do." This isn't even mentioning how many people have died under the oppressive government socialist or communist countries.

    I don't believe there can be compromise. Between a small group of friends or people it can work if agreed upon, but it has no place in government. It is a cancer pure and simple and any inch or leeway you give to it corrupts the entire system.

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