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Thread: Father/daughter Talk

  1. #33

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    Universal healthcare will NEVER happen in this country. I know there are a ton of libs that love it, but it will NEVER happen. The most powerful interest groups in the nation are the NRA, and pharmaceutical companies/doctors, in that order. In the US, it takes longer than any other country on the planet to train a doctor. I'm thinking about being a neurosurgeon. It will take me (including college), 16 years of TRAINING. No doctor will TRAIN for 16 years to make 50k a year. Doctors are the top 3% of brainpower in the country. If universal healthcare hits, doctors will make NOTHING. I don't care if someone thinks "300k a year is a lot"...it is jack CRAP for wasting the best 16 years of your life, and being exposed to AIDS/Hep/TB/etc on a daily basis. The fact is, if universal healthcare is signed into law here, the current doctors will quit and get other jobs, and the doctors in training will get other jobs. You'd be surprised how much credit a school will give you towards a bio PhD when you've spent a while in medical school . We are smart and resourceful people...the ones who really want to be doctors will make the same (comparable) amount of money, but move to a less corrupt country with an astronomically higher standard of living (Norway, Sweden, etc). If UH becomes law here, the healthcare system will collapse within a month. That many doctors leaving the profession so quickly will be equivalent to signing a death warrant for hundreds of thousands of people. Good luck pushing it!

    I support helping the poor, but everyone needs to have insurance. Those companies make record profits every year, might as well milk it. The poor complain that they can't afford it because rates are going up, but THEY are the reason rates go up exponentially every year. The way health insurance is structured in this country, the ones who can afford it are paying for the ones that can't, and the growing number of those who can't raises the number of those who can't, since the prices rise because unfortunately, doctors can't legally turn a patient away (unless they're a specialist). The gov't should give discounted insurance to the poor, who should e REQUIRED to have it, so that rates go down for everyone, and eventually that program can be phased out. I don't think anyone deserves to die, but I know a TON of doctors. Some will perform a $15k surgery, and the insurance companies will pay them $500. That's all they get...and they can't challenge it! That's (insert obscenity here)....period! Like I said, I don't think anyone DESERVES to die (except people that commit heinous crimes - I support capital punishment), but everyone certainly doesn't deserve treatment. It's a good idea in theory, but if you can't pay, the doctor pays out of pocket for supplies, facility fees, anesthesia, etc. People should be stabilized so they won't croak, but by virtue of existing, you don't deserve to be treated, especially with the best technology available. I'm a humanitarian, but I'm NOT going to be ok with paying $5,000 out of pocket and 4 unpaid hours to remove a bullet from some gangster who got shot by a citizen while trying to break into said person's house. I think if you can't afford insurance, you don't deserve treatment past "not dying", and even for that, you need to pay. You'd be surprised how many cases doctors see PER DAY in the ER that are totally unpaid....without a CENT for the labor or materials. The funny thing is...many of the people that don't have insurance are smokers and drinkers. A 30 pack a week costs $25. The average smoker smokes 2-3 packs a week, at $6 a pack. That's $37-43 PER WEEK x 4 weeks in a month = $148-172 per month...you can get a pretty awesome health care policy for that amount of money. It's funny to examine a lot of doctor's patients and see how many are obese, which brings even more problems on themselves (high blood pressure, osteoporosis, heart attack, heart disease, etc). Lots of people in this country are morbidly obese. The only excuse I've seen for so many fat people is that, "poor people buy the cheapest food, which has lots of salt, fat, additives, etc". I just graduated college, and I spent about $150 a month on food, which is NOT much AT ALL. My family has a history of high blood pressure, so I stay away from salt and fat. The cheapest food, hands down, no disputing it (because you can't!) are vegetables and fruits. At farmer's markets, apples are like 0.70/lb, potatoes are about $1.30/lb, etc, etc. Even if you ate nothing but potatoes and apples, you could feed a family of 4 on about $7 a day, which is about $2,500 a year. Even beggars make more than that! Some of these people can fix their own problems. There are a decent number of poor people in Lubbock, but EVERYONE has land. Grow some freaking crops! I have about 4k sq ft. of yard, and I live in a townhouse! I have the smallest yard out of anyone I know. It's like all these Asian countries "rice rice rice rice rice RICE RICE"....EAT SOMETHING ELSE! Grow some potatoes, grow radishes...they're ready to harvest in less than a month, are very high in vitamin C, and grow in the dark. Grow okra, it will grow more or less totally without water, in the dark or full sun, with or without fertilizer. You know what else is an easy crop? Wheat. The part I love is that they don't eat that much protein...they eat rice. Rice has about 8g of protein per serving. You know what has more? Fish! Isn't it hilarious that almost all of these countries (Indonesia, Malaysia, Ghana, The Ghambia, Ethiopia, Somalia, etc) have such large percentages of starving people but THEY BORDER THE SEA!?!?!? Am I the only one that realizes that fish is free if your country has any coastline? I mean seriously, how can you starve when free food is ready to be had (don't tell me you have to pay for fishing gear, sharpen a stick and look up "noodling" on youtube), and some countries (Ethiopia, Liberia, Uganda) have some of the most fertile farmland ON THE PLANET!?!? Seriously, some African/SE Asian country needs to give me control for a couple years so I can actually bring them up to 2nd world status, because they obviously can't handle anything on their own, period (btw, I love how lots of them hate whites because of colonialism, but those countries were most prosperous during colonialist times. Since European countries have pulled out, economies have crashed, governments have dissolved into anarchy, militaries run totally amok killing whoever they want (Indonesia/Uganda/etc), stability has hit 0, crime has skyrocketed, unemployment has skyrocketed, standard of living has gone down, etc). I don't think these people know any better, which is sad. I know lots of farmers around this area that could clear food difficulties up in those regions in a few years if given the means and the power. These farmers however, all grew up on farms, and went to get at least bachelor's degrees in agriculture, though most of them hold master's. Is there not an NGO that will fly me there to give these people some seeds and explain to them how to properly grow a simple crop? Do you poop? Don't do it in a hole! Do it in the field! What type of fertilizer do you think Mexico uses (oh yes, about 60% of our produce comes from Mexico, and they fertilize with raw sewage! Eat up!). I support democracy and self-governance worldwide, but it is a total (and very hilarious) joke to think that every people/country have the capacity to responsibly conduct self-governance. If you can't do it, you don't deserve it. I don't blame people in Liberia who have had civil war for 40 years...that's all they know, but they don't deserve democracy...yet. When you blind fire and have "soldiers" that are under 18 (most about 7-12), and preach to your soldiers that god will protect them, don't wear armor, and base your movement on voodoo/Juju, you need a strong Western power to come in, crush everything, and rebuild it to where people can live without fear of being killed while walking to school or work (not trying to be "racist" here, it could be anyone/country that is educated in the ways of the West, regardless of if they are white, black, Arab, Asian, etc). I don't think bad of those people because that's most all of them know, but they don't deserve democracy at this point until they know how to appreciate it, and a US-backed warlord (as has been the case so often) does not deserve power because we think he does. Situations like DROC are different, where the "rebels" are actually fighting to return democracy to DROC. These people deserve and NEED Western backing to restore the rule of law, and to "abolish" corruption, genocide, and the rule of men.

    I know many people won't agree with me....but is one of your parents, a cousin, AND an uncle a doctor? Have you been around medicine all your life? Do you really know about how everything is structured? Do you REALLY know, or do you THINK you know? Do you have an alternative solution that will actually work? Can you put your political views aside and look at things in a fiscally responsible/feasible point of view? Oh wait...no one here can answer yes to any of those questions. Unless you can answer yes to all of them, your right to challenge my views is hereby revoked .

    The point is, I have no problem helping someone that can't help themselves at all...I want to go to Africa or Asia and help out in 3rd world countries. The funny thing is, 99% of these volunteer places want YOU to pay! Excuse me, but I am NOT going to pay $2,000 to get to the location, another $500 in transport, (and let's say I stay there 3 months...i.e. the summer) another $1,000 to live (medical/food/clothes/place to stay), have daily exposure to AIDS/typhus/the hepatitis alphabet/TB/EBOLA (in some places)/malaria/diphtheria/etc/etc/etc, AND have a good chance of being killed, just to do 10 hours a day of slave labor with a degree I paid over $60,000 for....you've got to be fisting me!!!!!! The best part is 3rd world conditions (besides diseases) don't bother me. I don't mind pooping in a hole, I don't mind gathering my own food and eating once or twice a day, I don't mind sleeping under a lean-to I made myself out of banana leaves. I'm actually seriously considering liquidating my assets and moving to Vanuatu (happiest country on the planet!) and subsistence farming. I wouldn't miss the internet after a few months, and I think most of the stress created by modern society is nonsense/"fake". Sure I'd "make" about $2,000 a year, but I'd be happy! All you need is food, a woman, and rum!

    If anyone actually reads all of that (lol) and wants to call me racist/elitist....save your breath! I'm as humanitarian as it comes, but at the same time, I actually take into account how fiscally feasible/responsible a particular plan is, which many do not. The people that rally up to call views like mine "racist" or "elitist" are nonsense and shouldn't be listened to about anything, ever. It's a psychological FACT that everyone is some degree of either or both, and those types of people just assume that their particular brand of racism or elitism is more transparent or more "acceptable" than everyone else's. Those who live in glass houses, etc, etc..........
    The only reason I give this disclaimer, is because I KNOW it's coming! How can I be racist for wanting badly to fix a situation that crosses racial/international/religious/caste/"socioeconomic" as much as I hate that word, boundaries (come on, our middle class isn't the same as Columbia's middle class). But like I said...I would not at all be surprised if someone busted that out. If you're black (and are less than 3rd generation American) or Asian (less then 3rd generation) and have a case against me for racism that you'd like to present, I'd be glad to hear it. If you're a middle or higher class white person who wants to be a cultural apologist and try to guilt trip me into a racism that doesn't exist because I don't agree with your views, save your breath and don't make yourself look like a fool. Oh and btw, I'll just go ahead and say right now that I'm SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO closed-minded, to save anyone that is thinking that from typing it. Because I typed a reasonable argument and don't want to give up 90% of my income (sorry I don't support Communism!) to help the poor. Man I'm a terrible person!
    As a member here said before, just by virtue of existing does not mean you deserve a seat at the table. If you don't have a valid, non-partisan, logical argument, don't waste our time (not saying he and I agree, just a good point).

    So excited that there will be about 540 replies to this when I wake up lol.
    Z polski y dumny
    Prayer - how to do nothing and still think you're helping.
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  2. #34
    Stay chooned in for more! Clint's Avatar
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    Nothing says "America!" like guns and drugs!

    I agree with some of the stuff you say, but lumping "the poor" into one category isn't really fair. Yeah, some could afford insurance if they didn't buy cigarettes, beer, and lotto tickets, but there are some poor peeps really struggling who honestly can't. My insurance plan is about $150 per month, BUT I'm fortunate to come from a nice family, not some single mother with a kid trying to get by on two job, etc. I disagree about poor people eating the cheapest food. I've seen a lot of fat people in BMW's, Escalades, etc. Everyone like junk food lmao, and not all junk off is cheap twinkies :P We REALLY need to do something about the obesity epidemic (epidemic lol. "Grandad, how did you ever survive the great obesity epidemic? " "Well, Billy, times were tough for everyone...." ) approving orlistat for OTC is a good step, but it's not enough. People need to take an interest in their own health and go to a doctor to get some diet pills if they are more than say, 50 lbs overweight. Skip this over caffeinated OTC crap, go for the Phentermine and Sibutramine. Only my uncle is a doctor, but that's via marriage. Jack Borders. Performed the first trachael reconstruction surgery in the UAE at Tawam Hospital and invented the safety skin hook. Used to go hunting with my dad when I was a baby. Does that count? I'll concede that he is in the UAE (I think Dubai? Can't remember) Maybe for the better money lmao

    You're NOT really a racist. You have made deplorable comments about religion, third world countries, the poor, etc, but none were ever based on race to my knowledge. It got iffy with the religious comments since they can be tied to each other sometimes, but technically that was based on religion and not race. I do think it's funny you don't support communism, but do support dictatorship. Or to be broad, at least something other than democracy.

  3. #35
    Moderator Schmoderator Fluorescent fluorite, England PlantAKiss's Avatar
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    ive never cared for politics, to me its one of those topics that just blows up and everyone ends up upset or worked up and this thread will just go on and on about who is right and who is wrong. no matter how much you think you know either, the argument will go no where and someone will think they know more.
    This is because the art of debate gets lost with some individuals desire to turn it into an argument they have to win.
    "Fox terriers are born with about four times as much original sin in them as other dogs." - Jerome K. Jerome

  4. #36

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    Phisson, I have to point this out it made me laugh when I was reading through your post. Right after you say your against universal health care you said the govt should offer insurance to everyone who doesn't have it and REQUIRE them to purchase it. This is universal health care if everyone is required to have it or something better. One thing I will say in regards to interest groups pushing universal health care the big business PACs are pushing it like there is no tomorrow because they could save billions of dollars by pushing the health care burden onto the workers. Unfortunately many of them will not pass the savings on to workers in the form of increased income. I am fully aware of how medical care costs companies, my fathers business spends the most on wages then on health care and he runs a production shop so materials and machines are expensive for him. Granted he does buy better than the cheapest health care for his employees but still its ridiculously expensive. Also I am not aware of any universal health care program that caps doctors wages at 50k/year, if there is one that might actually get passed please show it to me. I personally dont mind that doctors make 150k+ and way more if they are a specialist and many people agree with me. When its hard to swallow is when you cant see a doctor because it costs too much then people do get upset about it.

    I want to see your reference for the FACT that all people are racists/elitist as I question that result.

    As for your opinion on the third world you missed the one thing that will really help them out, we need to educate them no only on how to produce more food but also we need to help them control their population as fewer kids is fewer mouths to feed which means you need less food which means you dont have to over intensify your production and dessicate your land. One thing to remember though is that just increase food production just delays starvation you have to control populations. If you don't believe me research the cause of the violence that went on Rwanda in the 1990's it was all triggered by a down turn in agricultural productivity. Also Mexico isn't the only country that fertilizes with human waste, the Chinese have been doing for thousands of years, and well we all know they are providing more and more food to us every year.
    "We're terrible animals. I think that the Earth's immune system is trying to get rid of us, as well it should." - Kurt Vonnegut

  5. #37
    rattler's Avatar
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    if a doc is can only make $50,000 a year than that doc is going to be renting for his entire lives in a big city.....they will never be able to afford to buy a home....hell combined the wife and i make $45,000, even living in a cheap to live small town things can be tight.....christ my $65,000 house would cost over $1 million if it was in LA or New York...........nothing wrong with doctors who go to school for damn near a decade to be pulling down well over $150,000 a year....i dont know i would trust someone that makes $50,000 a year to cut me open......
    cervid serial killer
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  6. #38
    NICK,NICK,NICK!!!!! Indians....... likeAstone76's Avatar
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    This is because the art of debate gets lost with some individuals desire to turn it into an argument they have to win
    Here's to the first of the of the day fellas!! To old, D.H. Lawrence!!!!

  7. #39
    Cardiac Nurse JB_OrchidGuy's Avatar
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    Phission all I can say is Dang!! That was a good argument and I agree with a lot of what you are saying. I dunno about eh cap a Doc an make, but I have heard a lot of docs saying that they would only make so much a day so they would only do so many surgeries and it would be like a 9-5 job. They would not take the call they do now it would be like shift work. They would know when they are going to get off and only be required to perform so many surgeries a year. I wok in the OR as a surgical tech and have been for ten years. So as I may bot have any family member that is a Doctor I do talk to a lot of them about this kind of thing.
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  8. #40

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    Wow I typed up a huge thing then accidentally hit one of my bookmarks at the top and lost it all. Anyway in short:

    - I meant $150k when I typed "50"
    - forcing people to have insurance isn't the same as socialized healthcare. Some is discounted, but people still foot the bill (in MA, for example)
    - being capped at 250k for a surgeon is unfair for spending 4 yrs in college, 4 in med school, then at least 4 more in residency, where you make 45k a year (less than a new law graduate). Since most people graduate with 200k worth of debt at 6.33% (or more) and can't make contributions during school/residency, and most are trying to support a family at that point.....

    - I'm so in favor of starting an NGO that sterilizes women in 3rd world countries (voluntarily, of course). I don't see why it hasn't already happened...I think lots of people would donate. Passing out condoms isn't effective as many men just refuse to use them.
    - Agreed that these countries need to get of aid, which is just a bandaid. They say they want monetary aid instead of food aid, but there's not a single African nation where more than 30% of any money donated would be used to anything other than making politicians/their friends rich. Here's a good clip: http://youtube.com/watch?v=U4oah_Efau8
    I think it's funny when they say they won't privatize land because of a rush to cities. Privatize 5% every other year via lottery system. BOOM! Problem solved. Seriously, someone hand me the reigns to an African nation. I'll have it 2nd world in no time. Most of their problems aren't that hard to solve. I don't understand why they've had 40,000 years to get their act together, but are still dragging their feet.
    - Education is a must too. In some of these extremely poor countries, kids stay home and work/farm instead of going to school. The gov't should stop being greedy and corrupt, and pay these kids like 2 cents a day to go to school instead.
    - Def need to educate about farming. Watch this clip: http://youtube.com/watch?v=dW7rShq4rqk
    These people complain they can't eat because the price of coffee is too low, yet they REFUSE to grow anything else (though they live on fertile land). If you're dumb and stubborn, you don't deserve help.

    I do think it's funny you don't support communism, but do support dictatorship.
    I think a benevolent dictatorship would be perfect. No red tape, no nonsense getting locked up for years, no filibustering, no special interests dominating things. If someone existed that was uncorruptable (lolololololol), fiscally conservative, and socially libertarian, I'd love to live in that dictatorship. Representative democracy sounds great in theory, and is great if it's actually adhered to. Unfortunately it fails miserably (at least here). No one in this country is happy with the way things are now, but nothing is being done about it. Bush's approval ratings are extremely low, but not only does he still have power, he's able to basically do whatever he wants! We live in an oligarchy now, and it sucks. We've deviated so far from what this country was meant to be.
    Z polski y dumny
    Prayer - how to do nothing and still think you're helping.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5F5aCUNE4Z8
    ^^^Newest vid

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