What's new
TerraForums Venus Flytrap, Nepenthes, Drosera and more talk

Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

Plant Patent

  • #21
There are no plant police, just as there are no recording industry police.

If a patent holder wanted to peruse litigation, he or she would simply go to court and file for a trial. The defendant would then be summonsed to court (failing to appear could result in a warrant for your arrest). The trial would determine if you're innocent or guilty and the fine would be awarded by the judge depending so.
 
  • #22
Some other places also sell "Red Bug" - and I think that's another one that is patented?

I believe that there were a handful of clones "created" and all the others in that "series" are patent pending. I'll see if I can locate where I saw that...

xvart.
 
  • #23
so in theory. ANY person that has grown a plant from seed can put a patent on that plant? i have a VFT seedling that i sprouted last year. i can put a patent on it. distribute it to who i want, then if they want to distribute they would have to ask me?

balogna...

Alex
 
  • #24
Its definitely a passionate topic with view on both sides of the mirror.
 
  • #25
Its definitely a passionate topic with view on both sides of the mirror.

Totally true, it's just the nature of the beast. While on one hand it can protect people, their efforts, their ideas, from large monstrous corporations.... it alienates others, inventors, hobbyists, small businesses from doing things in the world.

I think there's an extra painful sting for us since our hybrids are just built off A + B = Ab and for some species we only get 9 letters in the case of Sarracenias, 1 in the case of VFT's, etc... So it ends up with hurt feelings when someone 'owns' the mix Ab. It's not like it's a Sarracenia mixed with a lemon or something. lol

But again, the law is the law, break it at will, suffer the consequences as applied.
 
Last edited:
  • #26
I think there's some misunderstandings over plant patents (or maybe even the definition of a cultivar) on some people's parts. If I cross S. purpurea and S. oreophila and I register one plant as a cultivar, S. "Purple Oreo" and then patent it, my patent covers that one specific specimen, not every plant ever made by crossing S. purpurea and S. oreophila. Even if I crossed the same two parent plants again, I wouldn't end up with that exact same plant. Every seed grown plant is unique. That's why you can't reproduce some cultivars from seed and they must be propagated asexually. I think one of the other patented plants (like Red Bug or whatever it is) says that you can't reproduce the plant asexually but that doesn't mean you can't use it as a seed or pollen parent.

I'm not saying that I agree with patenting a plant but I think you need to see the breeder's perspective. If you look at agriculture and I spend a million dollars developing a tomato that grows like nobody's business and can't carry salmonella and I sell the seeds and every farmer out there keeps one tomato's worth of seeds to plant again next year, I've just lost my million dollar investment because no one is buying the seeds from me and I now can't recoup my investment and I go broke.

Just my $0.02.

Will
 
  • #27
Thanks for the clarification Will, believe I've got the agriculture side stuck in my head which not only patents their plants, but licenses how they are used as well.
 
  • #28
Some good points taken, Will.
The other thing plant patents are kinda pricey.not sure of the exact amount,I would never apply for one unless I had soem abcking from somebody filthy rich like bill gates, oprah, backing me in my business venture.Like that is going to happen,LOL
 
  • #29
Totally true, it's just the nature of the beast. While on one hand it can protect people, their efforts, their ideas, from large monstrous corporations.... it alienates others, inventors, hobbyists, small businesses from doing things in the world.

I think there's an extra painful sting for us since our hybrids are just built off A + B = Ab and for some species we only get 9 letters in the case of Sarracenias, 1 in the case of VFT's, etc... So it ends up with hurt feelings when someone 'owns' the mix Ab. It's not like it's a Sarracenia mixed with a lemon or something. lol

But again, the law is the law, break it at will, suffer the consequences as applied.

Not really. Think of all of the subspecies, varieties, and hybrid you can use to make a new hybrid in the case of Sarracenia.
 
  • #30
If I cross S. purpurea and S. oreophila and I register one plant as a cultivar, S. "Purple Oreo" and then patent it, my patent covers that one specific specimen, not every plant ever made by crossing S. purpurea and S. oreophila. Even if I crossed the same two parent plants again, I wouldn't end up with that exact same plant.

That is true about hybrids...however, if out of a batch of same-parent seed you had 10 plants that fit the described attributes for the cultivar, then it IS the cultivar. Cultivar registration doesn't go so far as to get into genetic composition of a plant (i.e. cultivars being required to have exact genetic structure). It goes only by the described/published attributes of the plants and more than one offspring of a hybrid can exhibit those attributes. So it is possible to re-create a cultivar via seed although more reliably via cloning.

You could possibly stand in the middle of Wilkerson's Bog and see many 'Leah Wilkerson"s but that doesn't mean all the Leah's came from the same seed pod (parent plant).
 
  • #31
I'm no expert on cultivars by any means, I'm just going by my understanding of them! :)

For example, here's the cultivar description of "Leah Wilkerson" from the ICPS website:

Sarracenia ‘Leah Wilkerson’​
Submitted: 12 April 2004
This naturally occurring Sarracenia hybrid was a chance find while visiting a bog on private property---with permission---in Walton County, Florida in May of 2002. Actually it was hard to miss this outstanding S. x moorei cross, as it stood head and shoulders above all the Sarracenia flava and Sarracenia leucophylla plants in the bog because of its sheer size. I have observed this plant in the field for two years and in cultivation for one year. Unlike most S. x moorei crosses, it displays unbelievable hybrid vigor. The original genet measured over two meters (six feet) across with more than fifty pitchers; the tallest of these measured 130 cm (50 inches) tall, while the heights of the majority of the other pitchers measured between 86-97 cm (34-38 inches). The average lateral measurement of the hood was 17 cm (6.5 inches).
In addition to its gigantic proportions, this hybrid is outstanding because of its stunning coloration. The lower three quarters of the pitchers are lime green, and the pitcher tops are lemon yellow with large areoles and light red veining. The ala is lined in red. The nectar roll is pronounced, undulated and mottled with red; this pigmentation becomes more solid near the column, and forms a throat blotch typical of the S. flava var. rugelii parentage. The lid is particularly colorful with an overall pale yellow color (verging on white) with regularly spaced strong red veining throughout. From a distance the lid takes on a peachy golden cast. The edge of the lid is edged in red and ruffled, typical of the S. leucophylla parent.
This hybrid produces most of its pitchers in the spring---obviously an influence from the Sarracenia flava in its ancestry. In cultivation, these spring pitchers regularly reach 86-91 cm (34-36 inches) in height. A second flush of pitchers is also produced in the fall, and as in S. leucophylla, these pitchers are even larger, measuring up to 96 cm (38 inches) tall.
The cultivar name honors Mrs. Leah Wilkerson, who has lived her entire life on the property where this plant occurs. About one-third this property is bog habitat. As her father before her did, Mrs. Wilkerson makes sure that the wire grass pasture gets burned every winter. While the family conducted these burns to maintain the pasture for livestock, they were providing the exact conditions to allow the other native plants to thrive, including the pitcher plants. So the name Sarracenia ‘Leah Wilkerson’ honors both Mrs. Wilkerson and her stewardship.
Vegetative propagation is necessary to maintain the unique features of this hybrid. I obtained written permission to collect a sample of this specimen, and it is presently in a private tissue culture lab. Those interested in obtaining specimens of this plant should contact me using the address below.

As I read it, you MUST use vegetative propagation to propagate this plant. If Brooks Garcia patented this plant, then we'd have to have his permission to reproduce the plant. If you collect seed from 'Leah Wilkerson' then the offspring are NOT 'Leah Wilkerson' going by the cultivar description and the patent wouldn't cover seed grown progeny of the parent. As a result, if you were in Wilkerson's Bog and you saw many plants similar to 'Leah Wilkerson' they wouldn't be 'Leah Wilkerson'.

There are some cultivars that can be reproduced from seed based on the cultivar description (such as D. 'Ivan's Paddle') and those would come under the patent if that plant was patented. That being said, I disagree with the statement "cultivar registration doesn't go so far as to get into genetic compositon of a plant." I feel it does, because if it did not, there would not be limitations placed on how the cultivar could be reproduced in order to preserve the qualities of the particular specimen. The only way to maintain the qualities that made this plant worthy of cultivar status is to maintain the genetics that control the qualities.

An example: there's named Sarracenia cultivar 'Daniel Rudd.' I've heard allegations that many of the plants circulated as 'Daniel Rudd' are not the real thing. Someone attempted to cross the same species to recreate the cultivar and selected a plant similar to the cultivar but it's NOT the cultivar. Another example is S. oreophila 'Don Schnell.' The only exisiting specimen of this cultivar was lost before it could be reproduced, so it's lost forever.

I hope what I think I know about cultivars aren't too off base and how all of it ties in to the issue of plant patenting. I believe that the plant is only covered by the patent if it fits the cultivar description.

If my understanding of cultivars is not correct, PLEASE somebody correct me! ;-) I also hope this is clear 'cause i was trying to type this out in chunks between working with clients since I'm doing this at the office!

That is true about hybrids...however, if out of a batch of same-parent seed you had 10 plants that fit the described attributes for the cultivar, then it IS the cultivar. Cultivar registration doesn't go so far as to get into genetic composition of a plant (i.e. cultivars being required to have exact genetic structure). It goes only by the described/published attributes of the plants and more than one offspring of a hybrid can exhibit those attributes. So it is possible to re-create a cultivar via seed although more reliably via cloning.

You could possibly stand in the middle of Wilkerson's Bog and see many 'Leah Wilkerson"s but that doesn't mean all the Leah's came from the same seed pod (parent plant).
 
  • #32
As I read it, you MUST use vegetative propagation to propagate this plant.

This is correct.

As a result, if you were in Wilkerson's Bog and you saw many plants similar to 'Leah Wilkerson' they wouldn't be 'Leah Wilkerson'.

This is also correct.

There are some cultivars that can be reproduced from seed based on the cultivar description (such as D. 'Ivan's Paddle') and those would come under the patent if that plant was patented. That being said, I disagree with the statement "cultivar registration doesn't go so far as to get into genetic compositon of a plant." I feel it does, because if it did not, there would not be limitations placed on how the cultivar could be reproduced in order to preserve the qualities of the particular specimen. The only way to maintain the qualities that made this plant worthy of cultivar status is to maintain the genetics that control the qualities.

This also applies to S. leucophylla'Hurricane Creek White' (which I disagree with). In these examples, the cultivar is a population of plants. According to the ICPS description:

In order to maintain this cultivar’s unique hardiness, color, and size characters, do not attach the cultivar name to any seedlings that do not show the large white pitchers of this Sarracenia leucophylla cultivar.)

The cultivar system is in and of itself totally messed up and very arcane. It needs some serious work to be taken as credible. Depending on the species, odds of actually scoring a real cultivar are pretty small. I seriously doubt that I'll ever own a cultivar status Dionea because of the growth patterns of vft's and environmental conditions. People see something similar to a 'Big Mouth' and say, that's a big mouth! and label it as such.

Another example is S. oreophila 'Don Schnell.' The only exisiting specimen of this cultivar was lost before it could be reproduced, so it's lost forever.

Ideally, a plant being considered for cultivar registration should be vegetatively divided by the owner and sent to a few different growers to ensure that the unique characteristics of the plant (the ones that make it "worthy" of cultivar status) are not simply because of the environmental conditions surrounding the plant.

I had a bunch more typed about the cultivar system, but I realized it was more of a rant and not even a relevant one.

xvart.
 
  • #33
I used the Leah Wilkerson thing just as a figurative example, not literal.

How would anyone check the genetic structure of every plant in order to see if the genes are exact for a cultivar?

Vegetative reproduction does guarantee an exact genetic copy of a cultivar. I'm no expert in this by any means but I was told by someone who is well versed in taxonomy that "if it fits the described features"...it IS the cultivar. So if (for example) one has a ceph and it matches the description of Hummer's Giant...its Hummer's Giant.

???
But like I said...I could have been given incorrect info on that.

Ooops...let me add, if the cultivar description includes a specific mention of reproduction (i.e. Brook's descrip of Leah), then you are correct. However, if a description is not so specific and says "any large all white plant with a 3" lid"...then any "large all white plant with a 3" lid" is the cultivar.
 
  • #34
Whether a plant is a cultivar or not and taxonomy are two totally separate things.
 
  • #35
I know. Lord y'all are literal around here. I guess I should have said "A Very Learned and Experienced Carnivorous Plant Grower Who Has Registered Cultivars" explained cultivars that way to ME. So I figured he knew what he was talking about.
 
  • #36
Ooops...let me add, if the cultivar description includes a specific mention of reproduction (i.e. Brook's descrip of Leah), then you are correct. However, if a description is not so specific and says "any large all white plant with a 3" lid"...then any "large all white plant with a 3" lid" is the cultivar.

Which is exactly the problem with the carnivorous plant cultivar registry system. Cultivars are unique and special, something out of the ordinary that is worthy of special recognition and a special title. It's easier to do with certain species, i.e. Nepenthes, but when you start looking at Cephalotus and Dionaea it becomes more troublesome.

Sweet dood, this vft I have is beast! The traps are huge! They are so big I can't believe it. Surely this should be registered as a cultivar. I'm going to write up a description and get it published in n00basaurs hacking digest. Here's the description of my plant I'm going to call 'Beastly Burden:' "The traps are beastly huge." w00t I'm famous!

There are so many cultivars of Dionaea that are solely based on trap size alone (at least in the common sensibility).

"Man, look at those traps! They are huge, it must be a 'B-52' or a 'Big Mouth.' Nah, dude. Those are my new cultivar, 'Beastly Burden.'"

"Has it already been vegitatively propogated?"

"No, but it looks like it, so it is my cultivar."


For god's sake, it's really not that unique anymore for Dionaea to have large traps. There are so many out there, cultivar or not. Half the plants out there with large traps are probably not even the real cultivar, or even any cultivar; but just a plant with big traps! And, considering the variablity of growth in Dionaea, a two paragraph description with no pictures can't cut it.

I'm getting way off topic here... sorry to the original off-topic split thread!

And PAK, what you describe may actually be the case, especially considering your source; I'm just pointing out how absurd it actually is in my opinion.

xvart.
 
  • #37
There is not necessarily a relationship between any cultivar and any particular genome. The ICNCP emphasizes that different cultivated plants may be accepted as different cultivars, even if they have the same genome, while cultivated plants with different genomes may be a single cultivar.

There. They said it better than I could. lol

Well I guess your example is why cultivars go up for review and can be accepted or rejected. There is SUPPOSED to be something very "worthy" and exceptional for a plant to be registered.

I think with many plants, orchids for example, the cultivars are ridiculous. There must be millions. So I think, in general, cultivar registration is over the top.
 
  • #38
I used the Leah Wilkerson thing just as a figurative example, not literal.

I didn't think you meant it literally, but I was just expounding on your example to illustrate my point. :)

How would anyone check the genetic structure of every plant in order to see if the genes are exact for a cultivar?

I'm not suggesting that each plant have an analysis of its DNA done to prove its identity as a cultivar. I mean that to say if the plant is not a vegetatively produced offspring of the parent plant, then there's a significant chance that plant is NOT the cultivar. :) If I understand what JC said, then there's a SLIM chance for a seed grown plant to be like the cultivar, so I'm not sure why someone would write a cultivar description that way. Therefore, if it's not a vegetatively cloned plant, it's not the cultivar. Now, what do you do when you self-pollinate something? I don't know enough about plant genetics to even open that can of worms, but I will hand someone the can opener! ;)

I hope you didn't think I was jumping down your throat - I'm not. :) I was just in a hurry when I wrote that message (just like I'm in a hurry writing this response too!) :) I'm doing it in chunks in-between clients, so I think it may be a little more "scattered" than I normally write.

I also didn't intend to "hijack" the thread away from Max's original post about plant patents, but it all seemed very connected to me. I can say that I've really enjoyed all the input on the topic because it's certainly given me some insight into cultivars as I read other responses and process the information to form my own response and I'm starting to think that the term "cultivar" itself may not be as clearly defined as it needs to be.
 
  • #39
No I didn't think you were jumping down my throat. :)

I'm not disagreeing with the vegetative thing. I guess I was trying to say what that quote in my post says. Genetics are not a hard and fast rule with cultivars. If you read cultivar descriptions, you'll see how much they vary from extremely detailed to less so.

I'm sure many CP folks have seen the various debates on some registered CPs. What name was chosen, what passes for a "worthy" plant, etc.

It is an interesting topic. And I guess patents may be a growing part of the cultivar world.
 
  • #40
Now, what do you do when you self-pollinate something? I don't know enough about plant genetics to even open that can of worms, but I will hand someone the can opener! ;)

It still wouldn't be the cultivar since there would still be genetic variations among the offspring. Considering the belief that self pollinating could lead to genetic deficiencies, the offspring should most certainly not be considered to be the cultivar. I believe the correct labeling would be S. 'Leah Wilkerson' x self.

xvart.
 
Back
Top