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Thread: very, very good news...............

  1. #89
    Doing it wrong until I do it right. xvart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rattler_mt View Post
    the issue being xvart is that if a student does go off the deep end weither or not a campus allows concealed carry has no bearing on what they are going to do.....
    I totally understand what you are saying and don't discount most of it.

    Quote Originally Posted by rattler_mt View Post
    the fact of the matter is that the chances of a someone who goes through the effort of getting a concealed carry license/permit, well statistically the chance of them causing a problem is so slim as to not be a factor statistically......
    However, being licensed and trained to operate a firearm does not make a commoner an excellent marksman, especially in the heat of the moment of an attack like at any of those schools. When something like that is going down, we need to keep in mind that everyone isn't just sitting still or ducking for cover; other students are running around, bumping into each other, and I would be worried about friendly fire and even more panic of a secondary shooter. Additionally, say someone does pull out their concealed weapon and starts firing, with others around, who is the police going to go after? In the panic they here there is a shooter in there, and then they come in and see two people with guns shooting at each other. Who's the shooter, they ask the panicked crowd. The one with the gun! Furthermore, I don't think any of us are in the position to make such a claim, for many reasons. Having civilians involved, in my opinion, only complicates defusing the situation for the professionals, who are trained at doing such things.

    As for the process involved, once someone has a gun, even if it is a small percentage, if they do do something and kill a couple students in a non-premeditated act, it seems equivalent to a licensed armed student killing a shooter and saving a couple lives there. I truly hate referencing the hypothetical people like that, but my point is that when it comes to the hypotheticals, as we all know, we just don't have the information, and no way to research it.

    Quote Originally Posted by JB_OrchidGuy View Post
    Those kids that threaten to commit suicide usually have mental issues and would not qualify for a concealed permit anyway.
    College students these days are coming to school with a lot more "baggage," so to speak. Many of these issues are only complicated throughout college because of adjustment, more stress, not properly prepared, and other cliche reasons. I have no doubt that a person who qualifies for a handgun permit one day will not be mentally stable a year from then. And forgive me if I'm wrong, because I don't know what any state/federal licensing expiration or renewal is.

    Quote Originally Posted by JB_OrchidGuy View Post
    The only thing I can see is if a student saw the firearm and freaked out in class that someone had a gun. So maybe they should be marked as being able to carry somehow, or carry it as a side arm when permitted. Put it in plain site so people think twice. It is a touchy subject.
    Which is another good point, and I didn't expand on it more originally because it's more a PR thing in some respects. I would imagine that many students, and their parents, would not be comfortable in a classroom with loaded guns across the room, down the row, or right next to them. Of course, that doesn't make it any more right or any more wrong, but it is a legitimate concern.

    Quote Originally Posted by JB_OrchidGuy View Post
    Education trumps legislation every time!!!
    I totally agree with this sentiment.

    xvart.
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  2. #90
    rattler's Avatar
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    xvart.....dont think their is a simple answer......fact of life anymore seems to be parents tendencies to plop a kid in front of a video game and do jack chit bout getting them ready for the world.....glad as hell i live in rural Montana where sports teams win or lose....could never understand the everyone wins BS cause the real world dont work that way....my oldest stepdaughter has to bust her rear for her position on the junior high basketball team and im happy as hell for it.....hope like hell when i turn her loose on her own in college she has a good idea how the real world works.....she has really learned in the last few months with her minor brush with the law that life aint fair......her buddies got nailed with criminal trespass and mischief....she got nailed with just the trespass cause she stood around and watched....her buddies that did the damage got 2 months probation.....she will get 6 and community service....why? she is white and her friends are natives on a reservation....she went to county court, her friends went to tribal........she is learning damn quick life aint fair and in all honesty i think its good for her cause its going to be better for her to realize it now and learn to deal with it with our help than when she leaves home for college......if parents would actually raise their kids instead of letting a TV do it, your job would prolly be alot easier.........

    your right getting a CCW permit dont make yah a marksman....especially under stressful situations....hope an individual who gets one practices often......however that said, rather get hit by a stray shot by someone trying to help than a stray shot by a madman allowed to run rampant cause no one is armed....either way im hurt but its far easier to deal with the one.....as far as weither the stray shot by a do gooder would kill me, well im more than a tad fatalistic and believe when its my time its my time...rather have the chance to fight back than be forced to cower....

    i guess part of the reason im rabid on this is that i live in an area where a hand full of police officers cover a huge area....my fire department is volunteer....the ambulance crew is volunteer...i know if i pick up that phone to call for help there is a good chance im going to be forced to deal with a situation for quite awhile before some can get there to help me out.....you either live in ignorance or accept the fact and prepare yourself for the worst and hope for the best.....i know its not a police officers job to protect me, those that have lived all their lives in a city and never had a true brush with danger dont seem to realize this......its the cops job to haul a bad guy infront of a jury.....its my job to protect my family, myself and my property and not anyone elses job, definatly not the police officer who is responding to a car wreck 20 miles away while im gassing up the truck at 3am on my way out of town to a meeting when some drugged up **** hole decideds he needs my wallet more than i do and is willing to stick a knife in my throat so i cant ID him to the cops..........
    cervid serial killer
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  3. #91
    Doing it wrong until I do it right. xvart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rattler_mt View Post
    xvart.....dont think their is a simple answer......
    I agree wholeheartedly.

    Quote Originally Posted by rattler_mt View Post
    however that said, rather get hit by a stray shot by someone trying to help than a stray shot by a madman allowed to run rampant cause no one is armed....either way im hurt but its far easier to deal with the one.....as far as weither the stray shot by a do gooder would kill me, well im more than a tad fatalistic and believe when its my time its my time...rather have the chance to fight back than be forced to cower....
    Yeah, unless that shot kills one of their classmates and that student (or their parents, or the courts) don't agree with your philosophy, lol.

    Quote Originally Posted by rattler_mt View Post
    i guess part of the reason im rabid on this is that i live in an area where a hand full of police officers cover a huge area....
    I totally understand your values here, and respect them to the fullest. My dad tells the story often enough of how they first put locks on their doors in western Kansas after the Clutter family was murdered (In Cold Blood and Truman Copote). I personally have never lived in a rural area, so I won't even begin to tell those populations how they should and should not live.

    That's why I'm neutral in most cases surrounding this issue; because I don't have the experience or knowledge to justify an opinion of any kind. My only area of experience is college campuses, which is why I stepped in here to begin with.

    xvart.
    "The tragedy of life is not that every man loses; but that he almost wins."

    "Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?"

  4. #92
    Katherine
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    Well, I can't comment, because I think you're 'gun license' stuff etc. over there is weird, but, OK then, I'm sure you have good reasons for people in the country wanting to carry around guns in there purses and have them in unlocked draws...
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  5. #93
    Stay chooned in for more! Clint's Avatar
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    Yeah. We do. If you tried to rob my mother, for example, she would shoot you. That's why lol. Like, duh. If a robber is in the house, he/she isn't going to wait while you unlock a drawer. Unless you have a kid, there's no reason to lock the drawer. It would defeat the purpose of having a gun in the first place though, I think.

    Besides. Americans often do things just because we can, not because it's a good idea.

  6. #94

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    I keep a loaded shotgun under my bed (safety on of course). If a robber breaks in, I'm shooting through my bedroom door before I have a chance to figure out if they want to harm me. Thank you Texas and the Castle Doctrine!

    Also, I just found out its now legal here to carry a concealed handgun in your car without a license. You're also allowed to have one on your person while traveling to and from your car. It's pretty impossible for a cop to prove that you aren't walking from your car to your house and vice versa.

    But on a note about gun death statistics....why is it that everyone that wants to complain about how evil guns are conveniently "forgets" that over HALF of gun deaths are suicides (http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1819165,00.html?xid=rss-topstories)? Also, the people that die most often from gunshots are black males: http://www.swivel.com/data_sets/show/1000427
    That's just due to inner city violence. If you took away all their guns, they'd just stab each other instead or hit each other with bats like everyone does in ghettos in the UK/Australia, etc.

    Interesting article: http://www.ajc.com/business/content/...ge_tab_newstab
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  7. #95
    Tropical Fish Enthusiast jimscott's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phissionkorps View Post
    But on a note about gun death statistics....why is it that everyone that wants to complain about how evil guns are conveniently "forgets" that over HALF of gun deaths are suicides (http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1819165,00.html?xid=rss-topstories)? Also, the people that die most often from gunshots are black males: http://www.swivel.com/data_sets/show/1000427
    That's just due to inner city violence. If you took away all their guns, they'd just stab each other instead or hit each other with bats like everyone does in ghettos in the UK/Australia, etc.

    Interesting article: http://www.ajc.com/business/content/...ge_tab_newstab

    Not only are the "criminals" dangerous, so are the "law-abiding citizens." Yeah theywould probably go for knives and other things... but maybe they wouldn't be dead, either.

    Too many "law-abiding citizens" have guns and they are shooting themselves, either accidentally or because someone P.O.'s them too much like spouses, siblings, and parents. Having a license to own a gun has led to may too many fatalities.

  8. #96
    Tropical Fish Enthusiast jimscott's Avatar
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    (Reuters) - The U.S. Supreme Court ruled on Thursday, for the first time in the country's history, that individual Americans have the right to own guns for personal use, and struck down a strict gun control law in the U.S. capital, Washington.

    Following are some facts about the case.

    * It marks the first time in nearly 70 years that the Supreme Court has taken up the meaning of the Second Amendment, the portion of the U.S. Constitution that addresses an individual's right to bear arms.

    * The Supreme Court's previous review of the Second Amendment came in a five-page discussion in an opinion issued in 1939 that failed to definitively resolve the constitutional issue.

    * At issue was the city's strict gun-control law -- a ban on private possession of handguns and requirement that any rifles or shotguns kept at home be unloaded and disassembled or bound by a trigger lock.

    * The court's ruling could have a far-reaching impact on gun-control laws in the United States, which is estimated to have the world's highest civilian gun ownership rate. The ruling could become an issue in the November presidential election.

    * During oral arguments in March, Justice Stephen Breyer cited statistics that between 80,000 and 100,000 people in the United States every year are killed or wounded in gun-related homicides or crimes, accidents or suicides. He said that in Washington, D.C., the number totals around 200 to 300 dead and between 1,500 to 2,000 people wounded.

    * The arguments followed a string of mass shootings in the previous year -- multiple killings on at least three college campuses, two shopping centres and one Missouri town meeting.

    * The case divided the Bush administration. Then-Solicitor General Paul Clement, the administration's lawyer before the Supreme Court, said individuals have a right to own a gun, but it is subject to reasonable government regulation. Vice President **** Cheney joined a group of U.S. House of Representatives and Senate members in urging a stronger stand in favour of gun rights.

    (Writing by James Vicini and Paul Grant, editing by Patricia Zengerle)



    More Americans Killed By Guns Than By War in the 20th Century
    1.4 Million Known American Firearms Casualties Since 1933

    Handgun Control Inc. news release, December 30, 1999

    Washington, DC: Although the exact number of Americans killed by gun violence in the 20th century will never be known, it is now all but certain that it will, by any measure, vastly exceed the number of Americans shot and killed on battlefields since 1900. In fact, more Americans were killed with guns in the 18-year period between 1979 and 1997 (651,697), than were killed in battle in all wars since 1775 (650,858). And while a sharp drop in gun homicides has contributed to a decline in overall gun deaths since 1993, the 90's will likely exceed the death toll of the 1980s (327,173) and end up being the deadliest decade of the century. By the end of the 1990s, an estimated 350,000 Americans will have been killed in non-military-related firearm incidents during the decade.

    Statistics on total U.S. gun deaths (including suicides and unintentional shootings), as compiled by the National Center for Health Statistics, have only been collected since 1979. But between 1979 and 1997, 651,697 Americans lost their lives to gun violence, including 334,870 suicides, 278,865 homicides, 28,964 unintentional shootings, and 8,998 from unknown causes.

    National statistics on gun homicides have been collected since 1933. Between 1933 and 1997, 591,528 Americans were murdered with firearms. Even the number of gun homicides since 1933, taken by itself, exceeds the total number of Americans killed on the battlefield during this century. In 1933, the first year for which national statistics are available, 7,863 Americans were murdered with guns. While we will never know the exact number of people murdered with firearms in this century, the total would likely approach 1.5 million.

    National statistics on unintentional shootings are available for every year from 1965 through 1998 and for selected years going back to 1933. The number of people unintentionally shot and killed every year has declined sharply over the past several decades. According to the U.S. National Center for Health Statistics (and its predecessor agencies) there were 3,014 fatal gun "accidents" in 1933, compared to 1,225 in 1995. Some experts caution, however, that the decline in "accidents" may not be as sharp as it appears, as earlier in this century many suicides were reported as "accidents."**

    Totaling together the number for which national statistics are available, at least 1,417,902 Americans were killed from gun homicides, suicides, unintentional shootings and unknown causes in the last 67 years. The actual total for the century, however, given the large number of years for which no or limited information was reported, may be more than triple the number of Americans killed in battle.

    "The 20th Century was truly the American Century," noted Sarah Brady, "and our nation has much to be proud of as it looks back at that past 100 years. But the level of gun violence was and remains at horribly unacceptable levels. As we look to a new century and a new millennium, we should renew our fight against this deadly epidemic. Too many Americans have paid the ultimate price for our failure to enact sensible gun laws and educate Americans about the dangers of firearms."

    "Throughout our nation's history, Congress has sent American men and women abroad to fight wars - and die - to uphold American principles and to end world injustices. But this Congress has refused to fight another important battle here at home: the fight against gun violence in America. Instead of 'declaring war' on gun violence and passing stronger laws to help keep guns out of the hands of criminals and children, Congress has surrendered to the special interests of the National Rifle Association and the gun lobby," said Mrs. Brady.

    "Since Congress refuses to pass tougher gun control laws to better protect American families, sadly, many Americans face more danger in the streets of their communities than our now-volunteer armed forces face on an average day," said Mrs. Brady. "Events just in the last two years demonstrate that schoolchildren, online brokers, Xerox repair workers and even small toddlers at day care centers can face the same threat our soldiers are trained to defeat."

    * Because gun death rates are only available through 1997, the figure for the number gun deaths in the 1990s (350,000) was calculated by assuming a consistent 6% decrease in the gun death rate and assuming a 1% increase in population each year. The data for the years 1998 and 1999 were estimated to be 30,527 deaths in 1998 and 28,976 in 1999. So far in the 1990s, over 290,000 Americans were killed with firearms.

    ** Source: Kleck, Gary. Targeting Guns - Firearms and their Control. Aldine De Gruyter, Inc. New York, 1997.

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