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very, very good news...............

  • #81
well jim every study out there has shown a correlation with a drop in violent crime rate when its easy for law abiding citizens are allowed to be armed and a rise in violent crime rates the tighter the gun control gets.....ever single gun ban has resulted in a dramatic spike in crime rates the following year.....you can sit and argue how you feel gun control will help and how things would be better if we ban guns but all studies prove otherwise which is why gun control freaks argue emotions and feelings and do not quote data cause there is none that supports them.........
 
  • #82
Show me the statistics.
 
  • #83
what kinda stats do you want? what studies arent you going to complain about and if your going to make me spend my time digging them up instead of just googling "gun control statistics"(two big hints, focus on Florida and Australia for starters) you find me a couple that support you since im tired of arguing feelings with you two.......

will have some for yah tonight though if yah really want them........cant use a computer at work cause there isnt an extra one and we now have a 4pm deadling to get our pages to the printer.....
 
  • #85
The best example of what happens when you ban guns is easy to find. Look at all the university campus shootings, where guns are not allowed to be carried by legal means. I wonder how many lives could have been saved if guns were allowed to be carried by permit owning, law abiding citizens. Just because you have not been put in a situation where you believe a gun would be useful, doesn't mean you'll never be in that situation one day.

I'm hesitant to jump in here since I don't have an opinion either way on this issue. I see both sides and now how I feel about me personally, but I'm not at liberty to say what the entire population should or shouldn't do; however, since the topic has come up on school shootings and I work on a college campus and have participated in many, many meetings on the subject of crises management, safety, and security, I feel obligated to chime in here. So here it goes (and I apologize in advance if you've read this before - I can't remember if I've posted similar comments here in the past or not):

As a college administrator, I've been in some very uncomfortable meetings with students before, where I have ultimately decided what will happen with an individual's future; and, I'm referring to bad news. Some of these meetings, I can't imagine sitting in, if I knew that this student might be legally carrying a gun.

As a minor example, a student who had twice claimed to going to commit suicide, which in turn disrupts the entire floor/hall/campus community. This student sent an email to a teacher saying she was going to shoot her brains out. Now, after the first incident I worked closely with counseling services, security, and other offices to help this student. After failing to uphold her end of the agreement, and threatening to kill herself again, I had to meet with her to tell her she had to move out, thus meaning she couldn't go to school anymore since she didn't have a place to live and was from further away, thus ruining everything she had worked so hard for.

Imagine sitting in that room telling her that news, knowing she had already talked about shooting herself with a gun. If she started to pull out a gun am I the one that is supposed to pull mine out then and shoot her?

Of course, some of you will say, that a person like that shouldn't have legal access to gun (which I agree) and you may say that she could bring a gun anyway (and she could); but in a more simple version are the times when someone spur of the moment decides that school isn't working out, I'm failing all my classes, oh... and I have a gun, so I'm going to shoot myself.

Banning guns from college campuses won't stop school shootings (at least the ones in years past) but I believe, with no evidence to support my claim, it does cut down on the random acts of unplanned violence. Yes, having guns on campus may have saved some peoples lives, but I'm not sure that arming our students is the answer either.

University's are going through hell these days setting up Behavioral Intervention Teams and other processes and checks/balances to find students that may be building up to situations where they may harm themselves or others. The Virginia Tech student was obviously problematic since so many people had incidents with him that alone did not stack up to anything but combined was beyond cause for concern. It's just that nobody shared these concerns, and no compiled record was kept.

College campuses should be safe places for students; and just like any safe place, there is always the possibility of a crisis. I don't think at this time (depending on where you live), a vast majority of the college students aren't ready and aren't comfortable going to a college campus where students are armed. Colleges and Universities are places of shared knowledge and education, and with that mission and obligation, there are ways to help save lives outside of arming everyone else, which all college campuses are working on, including ones where guns are allowed.

To wrap up that, do I think guns should be allowed on college campuses? Absolutely not. Is it my opinion that every college that allows guns is wrong? Not necessarily; I just know I'll never work at one.

as far as i am aware you can carry on campus in Utah and have been able to for years....have yet to hear about a campus shooting in Utah.......

There are also plenty of states that ban guns on campus that haven't had shootings, too. And, in my opinion, I highly doubt that having an armed campus would deter any columbine/Virgina Tech/Northern Illinois University like incidents.

xvart.
 
  • #86
the issue being xvart is that if a student does go off the deep end weither or not a campus allows concealed carry has no bearing on what they are going to do.....the fact of the matter is that the chances of a someone who goes through the effort of getting a concealed carry license/permit, well statistically the chance of them causing a problem is so slim as to not be a factor statistically.......while i dont think you should require a license to exercise a god given right, i am will to concede to going through the effort to get a concealed carry permit to be able to do so.......
 
  • #87
Rattler I agree with you totally. Had a student had a handgun in class the day the VA tech guy was there he would have been toast long before killing so many people. Those kids that threaten to commit suicide usually have mental issues and would not qualify for a concealed permit anyway. I think guns should be allowed to be carried by students in colleges.

The only thing I can see is if a student saw the firearm and freaked out in class that someone had a gun. So maybe they should be marked as being able to carry somehow, or carry it as a side arm when permitted. Put it in plain site so people think twice. It is a touchy subject.
 
  • #88
....education trumps legislation every time........you murder someone in the commission of a crime, i say light the SOB up in the electric chair.....

Hot damn rattler!!! I like how you think!! Education trumps legislation every time!!! No one wants to teach their kids anything any more. We have a bunch of pansy's around here any more. Of course if you hide guns from children and to not teach them the powerfulness of a gun of course they are going to be curious. Many people know how kids are, at least I know how I was, I was inquisitive and curious about everything. If a kid only sees a gun as a toy or on TV and do not know the true power of a gun then they will not know how to respect that weapon. Hiding the truth about guns from children is not the answer. What ever happened to education?
 
  • #89
the issue being xvart is that if a student does go off the deep end weither or not a campus allows concealed carry has no bearing on what they are going to do.....

I totally understand what you are saying and don't discount most of it.

the fact of the matter is that the chances of a someone who goes through the effort of getting a concealed carry license/permit, well statistically the chance of them causing a problem is so slim as to not be a factor statistically......

However, being licensed and trained to operate a firearm does not make a commoner an excellent marksman, especially in the heat of the moment of an attack like at any of those schools. When something like that is going down, we need to keep in mind that everyone isn't just sitting still or ducking for cover; other students are running around, bumping into each other, and I would be worried about friendly fire and even more panic of a secondary shooter. Additionally, say someone does pull out their concealed weapon and starts firing, with others around, who is the police going to go after? In the panic they here there is a shooter in there, and then they come in and see two people with guns shooting at each other. Who's the shooter, they ask the panicked crowd. The one with the gun! Furthermore, I don't think any of us are in the position to make such a claim, for many reasons. Having civilians involved, in my opinion, only complicates defusing the situation for the professionals, who are trained at doing such things.

As for the process involved, once someone has a gun, even if it is a small percentage, if they do do something and kill a couple students in a non-premeditated act, it seems equivalent to a licensed armed student killing a shooter and saving a couple lives there. I truly hate referencing the hypothetical people like that, but my point is that when it comes to the hypotheticals, as we all know, we just don't have the information, and no way to research it.

Those kids that threaten to commit suicide usually have mental issues and would not qualify for a concealed permit anyway.

College students these days are coming to school with a lot more "baggage," so to speak. Many of these issues are only complicated throughout college because of adjustment, more stress, not properly prepared, and other cliche reasons. I have no doubt that a person who qualifies for a handgun permit one day will not be mentally stable a year from then. And forgive me if I'm wrong, because I don't know what any state/federal licensing expiration or renewal is.

The only thing I can see is if a student saw the firearm and freaked out in class that someone had a gun. So maybe they should be marked as being able to carry somehow, or carry it as a side arm when permitted. Put it in plain site so people think twice. It is a touchy subject.

Which is another good point, and I didn't expand on it more originally because it's more a PR thing in some respects. I would imagine that many students, and their parents, would not be comfortable in a classroom with loaded guns across the room, down the row, or right next to them. Of course, that doesn't make it any more right or any more wrong, but it is a legitimate concern.

Education trumps legislation every time!!!

I totally agree with this sentiment.

xvart.
 
  • #90
xvart.....dont think their is a simple answer......fact of life anymore seems to be parents tendencies to plop a kid in front of a video game and do jack chit bout getting them ready for the world.....glad as hell i live in rural Montana where sports teams win or lose....could never understand the everyone wins BS cause the real world dont work that way....my oldest stepdaughter has to bust her rear for her position on the junior high basketball team and im happy as hell for it.....hope like hell when i turn her loose on her own in college she has a good idea how the real world works.....she has really learned in the last few months with her minor brush with the law that life aint fair......her buddies got nailed with criminal trespass and mischief....she got nailed with just the trespass cause she stood around and watched....her buddies that did the damage got 2 months probation.....she will get 6 and community service....why? she is white and her friends are natives on a reservation....she went to county court, her friends went to tribal........she is learning damn quick life aint fair and in all honesty i think its good for her cause its going to be better for her to realize it now and learn to deal with it with our help than when she leaves home for college......if parents would actually raise their kids instead of letting a TV do it, your job would prolly be alot easier.........

your right getting a CCW permit dont make yah a marksman....especially under stressful situations....hope an individual who gets one practices often......however that said, rather get hit by a stray shot by someone trying to help than a stray shot by a madman allowed to run rampant cause no one is armed....either way im hurt but its far easier to deal with the one.....as far as weither the stray shot by a do gooder would kill me, well im more than a tad fatalistic and believe when its my time its my time...rather have the chance to fight back than be forced to cower....

i guess part of the reason im rabid on this is that i live in an area where a hand full of police officers cover a huge area....my fire department is volunteer....the ambulance crew is volunteer...i know if i pick up that phone to call for help there is a good chance im going to be forced to deal with a situation for quite awhile before some can get there to help me out.....you either live in ignorance or accept the fact and prepare yourself for the worst and hope for the best.....i know its not a police officers job to protect me, those that have lived all their lives in a city and never had a true brush with danger dont seem to realize this......its the cops job to haul a bad guy infront of a jury.....its my job to protect my family, myself and my property and not anyone elses job, definatly not the police officer who is responding to a car wreck 20 miles away while im gassing up the truck at 3am on my way out of town to a meeting when some drugged up arse hole decideds he needs my wallet more than i do and is willing to stick a knife in my throat so i cant ID him to the cops..........
 
  • #91
xvart.....dont think their is a simple answer......

I agree wholeheartedly.

however that said, rather get hit by a stray shot by someone trying to help than a stray shot by a madman allowed to run rampant cause no one is armed....either way im hurt but its far easier to deal with the one.....as far as weither the stray shot by a do gooder would kill me, well im more than a tad fatalistic and believe when its my time its my time...rather have the chance to fight back than be forced to cower....

Yeah, unless that shot kills one of their classmates and that student (or their parents, or the courts) don't agree with your philosophy, lol.

i guess part of the reason im rabid on this is that i live in an area where a hand full of police officers cover a huge area....

I totally understand your values here, and respect them to the fullest. My dad tells the story often enough of how they first put locks on their doors in western Kansas after the Clutter family was murdered (In Cold Blood and Truman Copote). I personally have never lived in a rural area, so I won't even begin to tell those populations how they should and should not live.

That's why I'm neutral in most cases surrounding this issue; because I don't have the experience or knowledge to justify an opinion of any kind. My only area of experience is college campuses, which is why I stepped in here to begin with.

xvart.
 
  • #92
Well, I can't comment, because I think you're 'gun license' stuff etc. over there is weird, but, OK then, I'm sure you have good reasons for people in the country wanting to carry around guns in there purses and have them in unlocked draws...
:)
 
  • #93
Yeah. We do. If you tried to rob my mother, for example, she would shoot you. That's why lol. Like, duh. If a robber is in the house, he/she isn't going to wait while you unlock a drawer. Unless you have a kid, there's no reason to lock the drawer. It would defeat the purpose of having a gun in the first place though, I think.

Besides. Americans often do things just because we can, not because it's a good idea.
 
  • #94
I keep a loaded shotgun under my bed (safety on of course). If a robber breaks in, I'm shooting through my bedroom door before I have a chance to figure out if they want to harm me. Thank you Texas and the Castle Doctrine!

Also, I just found out its now legal here to carry a concealed handgun in your car without a license. You're also allowed to have one on your person while traveling to and from your car. It's pretty impossible for a cop to prove that you aren't walking from your car to your house and vice versa.

But on a note about gun death statistics....why is it that everyone that wants to complain about how evil guns are conveniently "forgets" that over HALF of gun deaths are suicides (http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1819165,00.html?xid=rss-topstories)? Also, the people that die most often from gunshots are black males: http://www.swivel.com/data_sets/show/1000427
That's just due to inner city violence. If you took away all their guns, they'd just stab each other instead or hit each other with bats like everyone does in ghettos in the UK/Australia, etc.

Interesting article: http://www.ajc.com/business/content...un_showdown.html?cxntlid=homepage_tab_newstab
 
  • #95
But on a note about gun death statistics....why is it that everyone that wants to complain about how evil guns are conveniently "forgets" that over HALF of gun deaths are suicides (http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1819165,00.html?xid=rss-topstories)? Also, the people that die most often from gunshots are black males: http://www.swivel.com/data_sets/show/1000427
That's just due to inner city violence. If you took away all their guns, they'd just stab each other instead or hit each other with bats like everyone does in ghettos in the UK/Australia, etc.

Interesting article: http://www.ajc.com/business/content...un_showdown.html?cxntlid=homepage_tab_newstab


Not only are the "criminals" dangerous, so are the "law-abiding citizens." Yeah theywould probably go for knives and other things... but maybe they wouldn't be dead, either.

Too many "law-abiding citizens" have guns and they are shooting themselves, either accidentally or because someone P.O.'s them too much like spouses, siblings, and parents. Having a license to own a gun has led to may too many fatalities.
 
  • #96
(Reuters) - The U.S. Supreme Court ruled on Thursday, for the first time in the country's history, that individual Americans have the right to own guns for personal use, and struck down a strict gun control law in the U.S. capital, Washington.

Following are some facts about the case.

* It marks the first time in nearly 70 years that the Supreme Court has taken up the meaning of the Second Amendment, the portion of the U.S. Constitution that addresses an individual's right to bear arms.

* The Supreme Court's previous review of the Second Amendment came in a five-page discussion in an opinion issued in 1939 that failed to definitively resolve the constitutional issue.

* At issue was the city's strict gun-control law -- a ban on private possession of handguns and requirement that any rifles or shotguns kept at home be unloaded and disassembled or bound by a trigger lock.

* The court's ruling could have a far-reaching impact on gun-control laws in the United States, which is estimated to have the world's highest civilian gun ownership rate. The ruling could become an issue in the November presidential election.

* During oral arguments in March, Justice Stephen Breyer cited statistics that between 80,000 and 100,000 people in the United States every year are killed or wounded in gun-related homicides or crimes, accidents or suicides. He said that in Washington, D.C., the number totals around 200 to 300 dead and between 1,500 to 2,000 people wounded.

* The arguments followed a string of mass shootings in the previous year -- multiple killings on at least three college campuses, two shopping centres and one Missouri town meeting.

* The case divided the Bush administration. Then-Solicitor General Paul Clement, the administration's lawyer before the Supreme Court, said individuals have a right to own a gun, but it is subject to reasonable government regulation. Vice President **** Cheney joined a group of U.S. House of Representatives and Senate members in urging a stronger stand in favour of gun rights.

(Writing by James Vicini and Paul Grant, editing by Patricia Zengerle)



More Americans Killed By Guns Than By War in the 20th Century
1.4 Million Known American Firearms Casualties Since 1933

Handgun Control Inc. news release, December 30, 1999

Washington, DC: Although the exact number of Americans killed by gun violence in the 20th century will never be known, it is now all but certain that it will, by any measure, vastly exceed the number of Americans shot and killed on battlefields since 1900. In fact, more Americans were killed with guns in the 18-year period between 1979 and 1997 (651,697), than were killed in battle in all wars since 1775 (650,858). And while a sharp drop in gun homicides has contributed to a decline in overall gun deaths since 1993, the 90's will likely exceed the death toll of the 1980s (327,173) and end up being the deadliest decade of the century. By the end of the 1990s, an estimated 350,000 Americans will have been killed in non-military-related firearm incidents during the decade.

Statistics on total U.S. gun deaths (including suicides and unintentional shootings), as compiled by the National Center for Health Statistics, have only been collected since 1979. But between 1979 and 1997, 651,697 Americans lost their lives to gun violence, including 334,870 suicides, 278,865 homicides, 28,964 unintentional shootings, and 8,998 from unknown causes.

National statistics on gun homicides have been collected since 1933. Between 1933 and 1997, 591,528 Americans were murdered with firearms. Even the number of gun homicides since 1933, taken by itself, exceeds the total number of Americans killed on the battlefield during this century. In 1933, the first year for which national statistics are available, 7,863 Americans were murdered with guns. While we will never know the exact number of people murdered with firearms in this century, the total would likely approach 1.5 million.

National statistics on unintentional shootings are available for every year from 1965 through 1998 and for selected years going back to 1933. The number of people unintentionally shot and killed every year has declined sharply over the past several decades. According to the U.S. National Center for Health Statistics (and its predecessor agencies) there were 3,014 fatal gun "accidents" in 1933, compared to 1,225 in 1995. Some experts caution, however, that the decline in "accidents" may not be as sharp as it appears, as earlier in this century many suicides were reported as "accidents."**

Totaling together the number for which national statistics are available, at least 1,417,902 Americans were killed from gun homicides, suicides, unintentional shootings and unknown causes in the last 67 years. The actual total for the century, however, given the large number of years for which no or limited information was reported, may be more than triple the number of Americans killed in battle.

"The 20th Century was truly the American Century," noted Sarah Brady, "and our nation has much to be proud of as it looks back at that past 100 years. But the level of gun violence was and remains at horribly unacceptable levels. As we look to a new century and a new millennium, we should renew our fight against this deadly epidemic. Too many Americans have paid the ultimate price for our failure to enact sensible gun laws and educate Americans about the dangers of firearms."

"Throughout our nation's history, Congress has sent American men and women abroad to fight wars - and die - to uphold American principles and to end world injustices. But this Congress has refused to fight another important battle here at home: the fight against gun violence in America. Instead of 'declaring war' on gun violence and passing stronger laws to help keep guns out of the hands of criminals and children, Congress has surrendered to the special interests of the National Rifle Association and the gun lobby," said Mrs. Brady.

"Since Congress refuses to pass tougher gun control laws to better protect American families, sadly, many Americans face more danger in the streets of their communities than our now-volunteer armed forces face on an average day," said Mrs. Brady. "Events just in the last two years demonstrate that schoolchildren, online brokers, Xerox repair workers and even small toddlers at day care centers can face the same threat our soldiers are trained to defeat."

* Because gun death rates are only available through 1997, the figure for the number gun deaths in the 1990s (350,000) was calculated by assuming a consistent 6% decrease in the gun death rate and assuming a 1% increase in population each year. The data for the years 1998 and 1999 were estimated to be 30,527 deaths in 1998 and 28,976 in 1999. So far in the 1990s, over 290,000 Americans were killed with firearms.

** Source: Kleck, Gary. Targeting Guns - Firearms and their Control. Aldine De Gruyter, Inc. New York, 1997.
 
  • #97
i gave you data from an outside source that compiled data your giving me a story by:

Handgun Control Inc. news release, December 30, 1999

i gave you hard data you give me data which was derived by:
* Because gun death rates are only available through 1997, the figure for the number gun deaths in the 1990s (350,000) was calculated by assuming a consistent 6% decrease in the gun death rate and assuming a 1% increase in population each year. The data for the years 1998 and 1999 were estimated to be 30,527 deaths in 1998 and 28,976 in 1999. So far in the 1990s, over 290,000 Americans were killed with firearms.

a mathematical formula, not actual statistics.....not to mention you have to figure half those deaths are suicide which means the person likly only hurt themselves and no one else......

you really want to use that as your argument?
 
  • #98
I just googled and these were some that were at the top of the list. I'm pointing out that the fact that we have guns at all, whether they be the idiots or the so-called law abiding citizens, we have way too many people shooting each other. We need to get rid of them, as much as we can, instead of allowing people to have licenses to own them. The cost in human life outweigh the few benefits of defense.

Betcha never expected the topic to take off like this! Only Word Association & religion preferences have exceeded this, LOL!
 
  • #99
its a pipe dream to think your going to make all the guns in the US disappear....its never going to happen....your far more likely to see Andrew give every one on this site a free hamata...you cant argue about getting rid of them all cause its impossible...look at England where handguns have been registered and confiscated for 100 years...they are having no luck controlling it, infact your more likely to be a victim of violent crime in England than South Africa let alone any other western nation....Canada's gun registration effort over the last few years has become so unsuccessful that its really become one big joke and has largely been abandoned.........your arguing the impossible....and as far as suicides, im sorry if i dont have much sympothy for someone who offs themselves, and ive been to that dark place.....i dont count ppl hurting themselves in violent crime, hell a guy has managed to castrate themself cause they stuck their family jewels in the ball washer on a golf course when he tripped and ripped them off....im sorry if your offended i think i a lil chlorine in the gene pool is a good thing.......

Florida started taking the stats of homicides(shootings done in a crime and not self defence) when they went to a shall issue concealed carry state, devoted an office and a couple ppl to it.....10 years later they closed the office because there were only 4 deaths by permit holders that were not self defense and they thought it was a waste of tax payer money to keep a couple ppl on staff to investigate and record one death every 2 years......

half of all gun deaths in the us are suicides....another big portion are shootings done in self defence....cold blooded murder via a gun isnt all that common when total population is figured in which is why it makes the nightly news.....
 
  • #100
I don't expect them to disappear, nor do I expect criminals or crime to go away. I DO want to limit what is put in front of humans. This species is too stupid to refrain from temptation!
 
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