check this out!

[cmm889]

I didnt answer your question because I dont have an answer, I have no idea I think it would require wayyyy more experience and knowledge than I could possibly have in more field than I even care to mention to diagnose that problem, and even then I dont see how someone could find a "100% correct" answer... I would never pretend to have that answer I'm not nearly that dense. haha

either way we agree on what needs to be done, and where the focus needs to be for the most part, I just think we've already agreed that slavery doesn't directly affect families of today... I know what you said in your counterarguments and so I know you believe that it subversively does... but skipping that for a second, bad neighborhoods ARE a product of poverty, I just dont understand your statement about how they didnt have hundreds of years to accumulate wealth... we're not running our country based upon family names and heritage and whatnot, my families past and wealth has litle to do with my direct families wealth, if we were rolling in slave earned money a hundred years ago we sure as hell arent anymore, so how can you claim that we've built that money up? we dont have a WHITE MANS vault where we keep all of our slave money.... they WERE at a disadvantage... but our country should be at a level where we are intelligent enough to understand what we need to do, I think the problem that we are both beating around isnt a matter of race at this point its a matter of poverty and bad education. there are more demographics than just african americans involved. its the poor community in general. Fixing that isnt by handing out things to a certain demographic that makes up a large portion of the poor community. its fixing the poor community as a whole. through improving neighborhoods and fixing our freaking schools, creating outreach programs and etc. its not just about the african americans, and it sure as hell isnt just about slavery. whether or not it was at some point or another is irrelevent now.

 

[Clint]

Here we go. This says it better than I ever could.


http://www.raceandhistory.com/selfnews/viewnews.cgi?newsid1098496868,42305,.shtml

It's not JUST AA's that are at a disadvantage, but that's the subject at hand.




I asked a friend who's black what he thought.... I got this for an answer:

"ok...well to make a long story short, blk ppl in general have done this injustice to themselves, many of them (not us, b/c I don't include myself in this statement) are lazy and have no drive thus they experience all their hardship of their own accord"



I'm shocked. I didn't know what to say.

 

[herenorthere]

I think most of the current problem arose during my parents' lifetime, long after slavery. Many of the worst problems arose due to racist lending and real estate practices and some of those were government-sanctioned. Black families were effectively shut out of better neighborhoods and it's mind-boggling to consider the rate of return my grandparents' and parents' generations received by getting into the suburban real estate market when they did. The huge inflation in real estate prices is ending up almost exclusively in white pockets and that provides all kinds of advantages.

 

[swords]

I can see the virulent fear of the white christian gunslingers in videos like this. I really thought the public had progressed even if the system hasn't.

I've been shocked how far Obama's gotten and I'm more excited to see the outcome of this election than any other so far. As his wife said, "I'm finally proud of my country!" I was a bit choked up when I found out he got the nomination, and I'm an anarchist! I've seen some of the worst this country has to offer humanity and maybe with Obama something can get done about this and get rid of these self serving neo-conservative christian *******s.

What I haven't been liking is Obamas backsliding, like agreeing with the warrantless wiretapping. When will the government be putting their cameras in my crapper? We'd better keep tabs, you never know, I may litterally be "passing" orders!

As far as him being a muslim, so F'in what? Unlike the christains, I'm not at all afraid of other peoples faith, skin color or sexual orientation (gasp) whatever it may be. I'm much more afraid of drunken white guys with guns and "god on their side" believing they have a right to run amok in the world changing peoples faith, skin color or sexual orientation. I work with 30% muslims, my dad lives in the largest muslim Somali population of the USA, we voted in the 1st muslim senator here in MN Keith Ellison. However, Obama's sadly, a christian, I guess I can over look it this one time, just to see a real leader in Amerikkka. Maybe I'll even quit spelling that way! As far as his Rev. Wright, I didn't hear ANYTHING that I didn't agree with from the segments they played on the news, Guess that makes me a Black Liberation fighter/sympathizer, and I'm as white as a lilly!

Fight the Powa, My Brothas!

 

[Clint]

What's up with the faith-based initiatives? I feel that either I've been lied to, or he's lying to them to get their votes. Politicians always do this. His base is getting pissed.

Sadly he's a Christian? I mean... sadly he's so doing this faith-based initiative stuff but not sadly he's a Christian....I mean you just said you're not at all afraid of other people's faiths, so why would you say that lol? Say one or the other but saying both is kind of contradictory. Personally I've got like a Christian-phobia thing going on... working on that and trying to be tolerant and not so judgmental and presumptuous. If someone says they're a Christian and moderate, I immediately think 'Bill O'Reilly" or "Jerry Falwell" for some reason.

 

[cmm889]

"I'm an anarchist! " <--- do you really understand that what that entails? becuase I think most "anarchists" dont understand that one, I only mention it because I used to think I was too and I had many friends who tried to do it with as much conviction possible... I'm just sayings its generally a more daunting task than you really understand.


ok so check this out....

"I'm much more afraid of drunken white guys with guns and "god on their side"

........ okay now this.....

"I'm not at all afraid of other peoples faith, skin color or sexual orientation"


you know that seems odd at the very least....


okay one more time...

"However, Obama's sadly, a christian, I guess I can over look it this one time, just to see a real leader in Amerikkka."

well.... lets think... your going to overlook his being a christian? well... I thought that didnt matter to you?


Amerikkka? .... really now? thats a very mature way of approaching the situation. good job?

-Chris

 

[xvart]

That flag pin stuff just eats my shorts. It's a stupid flag pin that politicians have associated with how big of a patriot someone is. Just because you don't wear a flag pin during public appearances does not make you less of a patriot. In fact, in my opinion, I would rather see someone who doesn't wear one simply because it's a fad, and a stupid one at that. Judging someone's commitment to their country or their patriotism by the frequency of flag pin wearing is like judging the world's fastest runner by the number of Nike swooshes someone is wearing.

I don't think Obama forgot to wear it ever. I think he only wears it sometimes and sometimes he doesn't; AND, I think that only started when he started catch superficial crap from the superficial politicians trying to scorn him. I think anyone that judges a politician by the frequency of flag pin wearing is superficial and doesn't have a good grasp of what civic duty means.

if people expect me to vote for someone because he/she is black they have to be worth voting for

Nobody is expecting you to vote for someone because of his or her skin color. In fact, I think we all are against that mindset.

xvart.

 

[swords]

However, Obama's sadly, a christian, I guess I can over look it this one time, just to see a real leader in Amerikkka.

Sarcasm. Do you really think I was "passing orders" too man? lol I was just caught up in the typing moment, I'm not running for office here so I'm allowed to make any off-the wall crazy leftist statments I want!

Perhaps I should have said neo-cons and not "christians", my whole point being it doesn't matter and if it were up to me I would never know what anyone else's religion is. The subject would never come up in a conversation between me and another person. As far as I'm concerned don't ask, don't tell. Look what worrying about what other people's religion is has done to mankind.

It's the right-wingers who (in this country) just happen to be white christian extremists who insist it matters and should be "fixed" if it doesn't fit with their worldview. If I were living in Iran I'd be rallying against the presiding Caliphate, I'm just this kind of person. If these people were able to live and let live I certainly wouldn't be complaining in the first place. If they simply prayed and went on their way like the Somalis and whoever else, what would I care? It's because these type of christians are so insistent that their ways be followed by the rest of the world, that their ways become laws in the country that I live in, that they leave a foul taste in my mouth. If I have one obvious prejudice I guess it's against these oppresive types of people. I don't see how that's bad though, wanting an even playing field for everyone where everyone's views are valid so long as they do not impinge on the validity of the views of others.
Of course a "normal" christian like Obama doesn't threaten my sense of well being, he's not one of the fundamentalist neo-cons who's "out to shape the world".

Falwells dead - long live Falwell!

 

[JB_OrchidGuy]

Of course a "normal" christian like Obama doesn't threaten my sense of well being, he's not one of the fundamentalist neo-cons who's "out to shape the world".

No he is just one of them that has a delusional view of the world and is his mentor. Do you believe the government created the HIV virus? That is one F'ed up way to think.

JC I'm sorry. It is not the fact he doesn't wear his flag pin. It was his comments after the fact, and his reasoning for not respecting the national anthem.

So Swords you up there in Rochester MN??

This may be off the subject, but if muslims are this supposed peace loving religion. Then why don't the majority "peace" loving ones stand up against the radical ones?

Back to the subject at hand. These days everyone has the oprotunity to get ahead in life. Regardless of your color youhave the chance. There are many scolotships just for black and just for women. Let it be just for whites and see what would be said. Anyway. You do not have to have money, or status to get into a college. You just have to apply yourself and make the grades. As I said before I attended an almost all black high school. Trust me the education there sucked. Yet I applied myself and now about to finish college for a second time. There are many other students I went to school with that applied themselves and went to school and now are making something of themselve. The opprotunities are there for everyone. You just have to have the mindset to use it. Instead many people have the mindset of I want it for free or gimme gimme gimme. Or they choose to play the blame game on the government or some one else for their short commings.

 

[swords]

This may be off the subject, but if muslims are this supposed peace loving religion. Then why don't the majority "peace" loving ones stand up against the radical ones?

The same could be said for christians throughout history or even currently with their "God Hates Fags" and "Kill A Queer for Christ" stickers. There's bad apples in every bushel, one simply can't make excuses for those.

The largest Somali population is not actually Rochester but the west bank U of M campus area of Minneapolis. My dad, a white guy, even had heart surgery by a Somali doctor at U of M fairview med center, he didn't kill him in the name of allah or whatever you think they might do to white people, he's a professional.

Did the US government make up the aids virus? We'll never know but I doubt it, it's worked to the right wing advantage of killing gays and blacks since the 80s before it broke out in the white hetero community but that's a conspiracy therory. Like ALL conspiracy theories there'a always an element of truth somewhere backed up by a whole lot of unfounded paranoia by the conspiracys believers. The Government has done some very F'd up things in the past and are doing more all the time under Hannity's (Bush's) America.

You said congress has all the power, since when? This has been the weakest, most administration whipped bunch of pansys I've ever seen. It's hard to imagine a single instance in the last 7 years where congress stood their ground against the president and won. Maybe on Social Security - thank the god's if there are any - I might not have to live on canned dog food when I retire but I ain't there yet.

 

[Clint]

Because they could be murdered for speaking out. If they'll blow THEMSELVES up, I wouldn't want to know what they'd do to someone else. Actually, we DO know what they do to other people. I've heard Iran is full of normal people who more or less lie and pretend to agree with the radicals. I don't know if that's true. I feel sorry for the normal people in the ME.

Islam is no more or less peaceful that Christianity. Certainly more... demanding. Their religion isn't to blame for the prevalence of radicals. It's the fact that the radicals take it so LITERALLY. If Christians took the Bible as literally as the radical Muslims take the Qur'an, America would be the same way. We'd kill people for being different. It's in the Bible, pretty much. Those religious nuts raise little religious nuts and so on and so forth. They're all brainwashed. Much like a lot of people in America, just to an extreme.


The government creating HIV is silly. It was the Masons.

 

[upper]

government made HIV?

 

[swords]

No Clint, it was the Venusians. When I put on my hat made of tinfoil the other day the neighbors dog who sends me messages from his electronic collar told me all about it
The masons are a front for the reptilian Venusians...
.

 

[swords]

I love it that there's a Muslim dating service ad at the top of the page!

 

[JB_OrchidGuy]

Upper some folks believe that the government created HIV to kill the gays and blacks. Listen to Rev Wright he'll tell ya its so.

Ya know the peaceful Muslims could take a stand if they wanted to. Anywho that is another story.

Swords I know nothing about MN. I just remember my GF telling me that there are a lot Samali in Rochester. When I told her about your thread she said it had to be Minneapolis. I also had to tell her that you don't have to be from the south to have some wacked out ideas. Since she told me that people in the south have a strange view of the world.

 

[herenorthere]

Maybe with a few more mentions of gay, the ad at the top will switch to one for a gay Muslim dating service.

 

[swords]

...and wouldn't that be really terrifying?

What is it "the peaceful muslims" could do for you other than convert to your particular worldview?
What have christians done lately to show how peaceful and loving they are? Those anti-gay bumper stickers don't make their worldview very comforting. I've never gotten hate mail before but I reviewed a bible-prophecy band (Babylon Mystery Orchestra) and pointed out that it's nothing but anti-muslim racist garbage. They even had an altered swastika as a logo. I had a good loving christian tell me he was basically waiting for the day I would be beheaded because of my accepting policy towards "those people". That's pretty crazy to me since the christians are supposed to be loving and accepting.

 

[Clint]

Supposed to be. Most Christians are secular and normal. I don't know WHY people never talk about that. Hello? Yeah. The right LOVES to point out how this is a "Christian nation". And it's true that 80% are Christian. It's also true that they're secular. Not religious. They always leave that part out. Most don't go to church, read the bible, and love doing things the religious consider "sin" and don't see anything wrong with it. And there isn't. There are also a lot of liberal Christians I've found out.... I just wish they'd be as vocal as the nuts. I wish liberals would be more vocal than the right in general. I really know where you're coming from, though. I'm prejudiced against them because of SO many bad experiences, not that I try to be. I assume the worst without even talking to them, and that's totally wrong of me and I'm working on that. I do to them what I complain about them doing to me, and that's wrong. I even accepted an invitation to church to confront my "phobia". I can't say I have an open mind if I'm not willing to try anything once. I'm not looking forward to it, though. Oddly enough... I think the dude that invited me wants to get into my pants... so explain that. Maybe it won't be so bad, after all }>: )

I think it's interesting how they obsess over homosexuality. Even if you do believe it's a sin, all sins are EQUAL. That means that, if you believe white lies are sinful (and I don't..), that saying you like a gift that you hate is just as bad as loving another guy, or hating someone for being gay for that matter. You'd think they'd shut up and prepare for the rapture or something. I believe Jesus said something like, the two most important laws are to love God and love everyone else. Not "Love God and everyone except the fags, 'cause that's gross." EDIT: What I think is REALLY crazy are gay Christians who think it's fine to be gay, just as long as you lead a life of loneliness and celibacy. I feel sorry for them. Or log cabin republicans... I really feel like they're traitors. I feel that social conservatives (I don't really care about money) are just... wallowing in their own stagnation and ignorance and, to be honest, extremely selfish and afraid. The nice way to put that would have been "Misguided", but they never seem to get it. I was just talking to someone last night how I'm getting ready to give up and stop trying to have a dialogue. They never want to get out of their bubble and see the world outside that bubble for what it really is. Maybe if they tried it, they'd see that things aren't true just because their pastor said so.

Know what? Even if you think things are sinful, why try to legislate morality? If you believe God gave us free will, why would you want to take that free will away? If you think it's sin, let us sin, like God gave us the choice of doing. Think you know better than God? It wouldn't surprise me. I'm not even angry writing this, and I'm like always pissed off in these threads. I'm just disappointed.

 

[swords]

Yes Clint but this comes down to what Robert Anton Wilson calls our Reality Tunnels. People are programmed their whole life to have a specific Reality Tunnel or "worldview" (the popular way of stating it now) from their upbringing, the people they associate with, the political ideologies they subscribe to, etc. These factors all influence what happens in their minds when they gaze out of the orbs in the front of their head. It's the same for all of us. I myself profess a belief in nothing but I'm fascinated by everything I love researching things and seeing "why" and "what" things are about. But to most people, ideas that run opposed to their view of the world aren't just wrong, they simply don't exist as realistic possibilities in their minds. Thus they have no need to try to understand them. The fictional book Eye in the Sky by Philip K Dlck (a pal of R.A.W.) is a great example of how peoples minds operate on different prejudicial levels and can be read in a few hours.

Longer full indepth quantum psychology for individuals and groups discussing how we view the world by Robert Anton Wilson can be found for free online at these two links (click the grey rectangle in the top right hand corner of view window for an englarged easy to read full screen blow up view of the text):

Prometheus Rising
http://www.scribd.com/doc/2842/Robert-Anton-Wilsons-Prometheus-Rising

Quantum Psychology
http://www.scribd.com/doc/2847/Robert-Anton-Wilsons-Quantum-Psychology

They are interesting but dry at points, the mental exercises at the end of each chapter of each book are fun to work on from both your own view point and from your perceptions of other people's viewpoint. R.A.W.'s Cosmic Trigger book series is much more "fun" reading of quick theories but not as educational as the above two.