What's new
TerraForums Venus Flytrap, Nepenthes, Drosera and more talk

Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

Brewing, microbes, and yeast... oh my!

What exactly does live in beer besides yeast? Not what can, but what does. The pH is quite low, alcohol content high enough (up to 15% in some common styles), and yeast makes it rather inhospitable to anything else. I've heard there may be "possible" things living in lambic styles, but not too many (and lambics aren't very common anyway). Homebrew isn't nearly as sophisticated as the megabreweries, and I'd find it hard to think of anything that could possibly live in even homebrew. Not only is everything diligently sterilized (if you're good at it), but the wort is boiled, which kills of anything. Then, even if something airborne landed in your wort while racking to secondary or something, it wouldn't be able to survive in the aforementioned conditions, especially since the yeast population would've exploded by that point.

Posts moved from here. Obviously I created a sort of lame title, so if there are any other suggestions, let me know... -xvart.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
15%? WTF are you drinking? very few are that high.....unless your drinking god aweful "malt liquor".......most styles of beer fall between 3% and 9% even homebrews are mainly in that range.........and Pyro corrected me and said microbes and such CAN live in beer, not that they DO and he is correct......just like ppl are wrong when they say honey is sterile, its not, the sugar content is just high enough to prevent things that land on it from growing.....however they can sit there dormant till the honey is diluted....
 
WTF are you drinking?
Maibock, barley wine, strong pale ale, etc. Lots of styles routinely go above 9%. Lots of bocks...eisbock, and so forth.

I'm sure there are lots of things that could live in beer. Bacteria are pretty adaptable...I just want to know what does. What can doesn't concern me if it won't be able to take hold.
 
unless yah leave a beer open on the counter for a couple days there is no issue......all kinds of things can live in beer(though there are no known pathogens) if homebrew gets infected with some bacteria you almost always dump it cause it tastes horrible, though is in all reality prolly "safe" to drink.....true lambics(and not those that most home brewers attempt) are prolly using 20 or more different strains of bacteria naturally occurring in and around the brewery......the best home brewers package of lambic cultures i can come up with only sell about 5 strains of bacteria......since bacteria are doing the fermentation and not so much yeasts the fermentation process takes a year or more and the end product is usually low in alcohol(i think 3-5%).............basically comes down to if the beer tastes fine its safe to drink..........bacteria wise........
 
I thought lambics were supposed to be done w/ wild yeasts?
 
its more bacteria than yeasts by far, yeasts play some part of it but the long fermentation process comes from the fact the bacteria that are present and are specifically intended to be a part of the process need lots of nutrients and time(the best im told age/ferment for several years)....if you added most cultivated yeast strains the alcohol content gets to high and the bacteria are killed off....im sure most of the alcohol present is from the wild yeasts but the traditional lambic flavors come from the bacteria.....

Today the beer is generally brewed from a grist containing approximately 70% barley malt and 30% unmalted wheat. When the wort has cooled, it is left exposed to the open air so that fermentation may occur spontaneously. While this exposure is a critical feature of the style, many of the key yeasts and bacteria are now understood to reside within the brewery and its (usually timber) fermenting vessels in numbers far greater than any delivered by the breeze. Up to 86 microorganisms have been identified in Lambic beer, the most significant ones being Brettanomyces bruxellensis and Brettanomyces lambicus. The process is generally only possible between October and May as in the summer months there are too many unfavourable organisms in the air that could spoil the beer.

also lambic beer normally contains no hops for flavoring....but may have some older ones that have diminished bitterness added as a preservative.....
 
Rattler is correct that I was more getting at the "can" side than the "do" but beer (even commercial beer) is by no means sterile. There are many beers sold with the yeast still active in them, and that is after the whole boiling and pasteurization process. And yeast really are not that robust as far as microorganisms are concerned so if they are alive then you can bet there are bacterial alive as well.

As for the conditions mentioned, the pH and EtOH are not even close to inhibitory levels for even common bacteria. Acetobacter happily thrive under those conditions (and are even used acidify beers further as in sour ales). They also tend to be the culprits for turning wine into vinegar and whine has a higher EtOH content than beer.

Additionally the presence of the yeast is not in and of itself inhibitory to the presence/growth of other organisms. While they may consume the most easily available resources faster because of their greater numbers there are plenty of other resources available for use, including the metabolic byproducts from the yeasts.

If you want specifics as to what all can be/is in beer I can not list them off hand because I have not researched it in detail (does not exactly fall under the umbrella of my funding LOL...) In point of fact I seriously doubt anyone has tried to get a complete census because, as I noted, they are not pathogenic and therefore are not of consequence to the world at large. And if they are not of consequence then no one wants to fund research into them... I am sure a little bit of websurfing will turn up some of the organisms known but considering the vast majority of microorganisms are not amicable to laboratory cultivation an entire census is only just now be possible... To someone who happened to have a couple million dollars and the latest generation of sequencing machinery just laying around (assuming this same person also had the technical prowess to run the experiments...)
 
A proper Lambic not only has wild yeasts; it also is fermented in open, aerobic conditions and that has a big impact on the flavor too. American brewers can't do that on a commercial scale. I've heard of home brewers approximating the effeect by using an aquarium bubbler to aerate the beer in secondary fermentation, but it's hit or miss and it's a risk. If you get samples from home-brewing friends who are a little too sloppy, you've probably had some experience with what alien microbes can do to a beer and none have killed me yet. It's a lesson that other things can thrive in beer. The best indicator is a white ring on the glass around the surface of the liquid in the bottle. When you see that, something else is in there.

The main Belgian wild yeasts are Brettano... something and beers made with them are bretts. I had one that tasted like the liquid seeping from the straw at the bottom of a horse stall, or how I would imagine it tasting and, given what it cost, I made a valiant effort to finish the full 25 oz. I made it to ~20 and just couldn't take another sip. I told a friend who's way into beer and he said it went great with smoked Gouda. I can't imagine. Other bretts are pretty darn good, but they're an acquired taste and it's hard to know what you're getting. The best and worst I've had are from the same brewer and have the same name (Flemish Primitive Wild Ale), with the only difference being the art on the label. I have a couple bretts in the basement now, with one being a good FPWA and the other being Ommegang Brewery's Ommegeddon. They can't brew that in the authentic, open air manner here. From what I've heard, they ferment the beer with more conventional yeast and add a shot a brett yeast right before bottling it.
 
I had one that tasted like the liquid seeping from the straw at the bottom of a horse stall, or how I would imagine it tasting

lol i have read similar descriptions for the lambic yeasts sold to home brewers and it always makes me wonder "is this stuff really the holy grail of beers with taste descriptions like that?" :grin: "horse sweat" is another descriptor i see........saw one strain that said its more along the lines of sour cherry.....that one actually sounded interesting.........
 
  • #10
"Horse sweat", "horse blanket", and "barnyard" don't seem like compliments when describing a beer but, like I said, bretts are an acquired taste. I never set out to acquire it, but am part way there. I just hope I never think "horse urine fermented with musty straw" tastes good.

Are you sure the cherry one isn't a kriek? That's a lambic which they add sour cherries to and let it ferment the cherry sugar. A former co-worker brought me one from Belgium and it was awesome. It was sour and didn't taste like cherry kool-aid. The ones I've found here (Boon & Lindemanns) are sweet & fruity. I wish I could remember the name of the great one, but I'm pretty sure it isn't imported here or, if it is, it's in places I don't go or can't afford. Lindemanns also make a Cassis (blackcurrant), Peche (peach), and Framboise (raspberry). They're sweet & fruity too.
 
  • #11
the descriptor was what the yeast imparts to the beer.....believe this is the one though the catalog description is written differently or it may be a differt strain or something.....cant find the "horse sweat" one, will post the description out of the catalog when i get home this evening....will post the sour cherry description aswell from the catalog...

Wyeast 3763 Roeselare Ale Blend VSS Apr-June 2008. A blend of lambic cultures including lactic bacteria. Produces beers with a complex, earthy profile and distinct pie cherry sourness from a Brettanomyces culture. Aging for up to 18 months is required for full flavor profile and acidity to develop. Will produce a very dry profile due to super-attenuative nature of mixed cultures Apparent attenuation: 80-plus%. Flocculation: variable. Optimum temp: 65°-85° F
 
  • #12
Wow that ferments fine up to 85°??? Time to experiment. Can you PM me what catalong that's from?
 
  • #13
done though its no real issue to post it here....that description is from Northern Brewer....IIRC Midwest also has lambic cultures.....
 
  • #14
A lot of homebrew stores sell Wyeast, which is one of the liquid yeast cultures. They cost more than cheap dry yeasts, but there's a great selection. As for the temperature, Ommegang, the Belgian-American brewer, has a warm room in its Cooperstown, NY brewery where all the beers have to sit for a few weeks for conditioning. As for warm fermenting, have you tried a steam beer yeast? Wyeast has one, called California something, since Anchor registered the steam beer name. I used it once and it made a very good beer. It's a lager yeast selected for warm temperatures.
 
  • #15
found it:
Brettanomyces Bruxellensis Activator Wyeast 5112:
Product Description:
Wild yeast isolated from brewery cultures in the Brussels region of Belgium. Produces the classic “sweaty horse blanket” character of indigenous beers: gueuze, lambics, sour browns. Ferments best in worts with lower pH after primary fermentation has begun. This strain is generally used in conjunction with S. cerevisiae as well as other wild yeast and lactic bacteria. Produces some acidity and may form a pellicle in bottles or casks. Generally requires 3-6 months aging for flavor to fully develop. Flocculation: medium; Attenuation: very high; Temperature Range: 60-75° F (15-24° C); Alcohol Tolerance: approximately 12% ABV; Styles: Flanders Red Ale, Fruit Lambic, Gueuze, Straight (Unblended) Lambic.

Brettanomyces Lambicus Activator 5526:
Product Description:
Wild yeast isolated from Belgian lambic beers. Produces a pie cherry-like flavor and sourness along with distinct brett character. Ferments best in worts with reduced pH after primary fermentation has begun. May form a pellicle in bottles or casks. Works best in conjunction with other yeast and lactic bacteria to produce the classic Belgian character. Generally requires 3-6 months of aging to fully develop flavor characteristics. Flocculation: medium; Attenuation: very high; Temperature Range: 60-75° F (15-24° C); Alcohol Tolerance: approximately 12% ABV; Styles: Berliner Weisse, Flanders Red Ale, Fruit Lambic, Gueuze, Straight (Unblended) Lambic.
 
  • #16
Just noticed this had went off topic enough into brewing; wish I would have seen it more quickly!!!

I must say that I really like sour ales; specifically Rodenbach. I tried Jolly Pumpkin's La Roja which was good but a little too much vinegar for my taste. The only problem with fermenting lambics (and using any Brett for that matte) is that amount of time it takes to develop their full range of flavors. Most brewers dump in the Brett after primary fermentation is over and just let it sit for 6+ months...

However, the beers that I think of when I hear farmhouse/horse blanket are Saisons; which I have heard can be fermented into the 90s... just to dry it out. Saisons are one of my favorite styles of beers and I try to have one every other week or so, yet I haven't brewed one yet since I've ran out of 2-row :-(. Maybe soon...
 
  • #17
Ok I think I am going to try my first attempt at just making up a recipe. I know the style I'm shooting for is loosely defined, but if anyone has any comments/suggestions, it'd be appreciated. This is my current ingredients list: (keep in mind I really don't like bitter beers, and the more alc, the better lol)

6lb Gold Malt syrup
3.15lb wheat malt syrup
1oz Saaz (bittering)
1oz Strisselspalt (flavoring)
whirlfloc
yeast fuel
Wyeast Biere De Garde Private Collection

Thinking of adding 3/4-1oz orange zest
maybe using 1lb of flaked maize or barley??

Will normal priming sugar be fine, or for this recipe should I use clear Belgian candi? If I do, should I skip the maize or barley?
 
  • #19
Ok I think I am going to try my first attempt at just making up a recipe. I know the style I'm shooting for is loosely defined, but if anyone has any comments/suggestions, it'd be appreciated. This is my current ingredients list: (keep in mind I really don't like bitter beers, and the more alc, the better lol)

6lb Gold Malt syrup
3.15lb wheat malt syrup
1oz Saaz (bittering)
1oz Strisselspalt (flavoring)
whirlfloc
yeast fuel
Wyeast Biere De Garde Private Collection

Thinking of adding 3/4-1oz orange zest
maybe using 1lb of flaked maize or barley??

Will normal priming sugar be fine, or for this recipe should I use clear Belgian candi? If I do, should I skip the maize or barley?

I wouldn't add any orange zest to this if you are going for a true Biere De Garde style. But, if you like orange flavors in your beers then go for it, thats why you're brewing it!!

I might be inclined to up the malt extract because at the moment you're sitting at an OG of 1.060 which is at the lower end of the spectrum for this beer according to the BJCP Style Guide. Plus, you commented that more alcohol = more better. So maybe add a couple more pounds of base malt extract... But, if you could find some Pilsner extract that would be great for this recipe!!

I would also probably steep at least some specialty grains in there just to give more depth of flavor. Some Caramunich II and maybe some Biscuit or Special B if you can find them (based on info from Maltose Falcons).

Normal priming sugar will be fine; I just go with 5oz for most things I bottle.

But, the great thing about homebrewing is that you can just do whatever you want and it will usually come out pretty excellent! Let us know the results!!!
 
  • #20
N00b question, but how can you tell what the original gravity will be based on those ingredients?

I used 9.15lb extract x 38/5 and got 1.069
 
Back
Top