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It's going to be Historic either way!!

  • #21
Thanks for that Adnedarn, I too stand corrected. That really makes abortion a much more complex issue when the chances of the baby having the disorder or not aren't 100% determined.

Nepenthusiast, a little more information on the abortion subject.... The triple screen was the first indication that there may be a problem. And this test is offered at about 4 months into the pregnancy. So if you opt for it, by about 4.5m into the pregnancy is when you find out the first indication that there may be a problem. Keeping that in mind, I think "late term abortion" is defined as 14-20weeks... So by the time parents know there might be a problem, it is generally already considered late term.... Definitely something to keep in mind when thinking about abortion as simply a Yes/No answer, it's quite a bit more complex than that. Not saying if there were a test that could say YES your kid has down syndrome, would mean he/she should be aborted IMHO.
Andrew
 
  • #22
Although I don't necessarily agree with teaching Creationism in the classroom, you made a very common blunder... and that is to tie it to Christianity. Creationism is an overall concept held by all different faiths... there are respected scientists from Judaism, Christianity, Islam, etc. that ascribe to this concept.

It's not about teaching a religion; it's about teaching an alternative view other than the one currently taught... which implies we all evolved by pure chance from primordial soup.




:usa2: :clap:
Rattler, I don't think Obama's plans will increase taxes for middle class citizens very much. I think he's made it clear that the taxes will be raised primarily on huge componies and the wealthy (wealthy meaning the top 5% of wage earners). Basically he'll cutt back Bush's tax cuts for the wealthy. According to his people it should lower taxes for 95% of people.
I don't like McCain, but I love his logo. It looks like some sort of choclate bar wrapper or something.
What really makes me excited the most is Obama's college community service thing...if you volunteer for helping fight poverty, literacy, or participate in community service you get tax breaks that make it easiar to go to college. I'm sure you already know that but I think thats such a good idea...our country would get so much more done long term if we just gave more people the oppurtunity to get an affordable college education and hence give them a chance in life. Plus it would encourage people to help the country.
Capslock said it already so I won't bother repeating why I don't like Palin. And gay marriage is NOT exactely a minor issue. And I think I'll die if my little brothers have to learn about Christianity in the science class room.
 
  • #23
oh did i mention she is a hottie?
I think she is a hottie too

And then I see on CNN
McCain taps Alaska Gov. Palin as vice president pick
which on my screen in a minimized window reads "McCain taps Alaskan Gov..."

Am I the only one who finds the wording... curious?



Also:
here are respected scientists from Judaism, Christianity, Islam, etc. that ascribe to this concept [creationism].

WOW! This thread is just FULL of surprises! :chuckle:
 
  • #24
This is part of why the average American makes $2K less per year under Bush than they did under Clinton.

taxes for us as a small buisiness have been better for us under Bush than under Clinton....and we have under $100,000 a year in payroll.......also we were headed for a resession when Bush took over the reigns....Clintons policies were already sending us there....things were starting to tank even before 9-11....hell we arent actually going to feel the majority of what Bush has done for awhile yet.....better or worse......

Hitler wrote a successful book WTF has that got to do with anything.....

Obama has stated he is going after the oil companies and hit them with a windfall tax and give all tax payers a grand....you mean to tell me as someone who runs a business you think this is a good idea? you think gas is high now wait till that gets tried, we will see gas at $6 a gallon and higher.......why? cause you destablize the US's free market....all the sudden the government gets to tell you just how much profit your allowed to make......as a business owner that busts his *** for every dime i make i find something very wrong with even the idea of that........the US oil companies are a drop in the bucket in the world market place they dont have much say in global prices when governments like Saudi Arabia, Venezuala are playing the market with many times Exxons volume......

Obama wants more social programs and the only way to do that is to fund them with tax dollars.....how in the hell do you make more programs without raising taxes?

cant like a senator that votes "present" as often as he votes "yes" or "no".......

ill take Palin's issues over Obama's cry that he will bring "change" but doesnt tell us HOW he is going to do it.....Hitler did the same damn thing in 1930's Germany.......now no im not comparing Obama to Hitler........just saying i would rather have a known quantity than an unknown......everytime someone has has tried to nail down exactly what Obama means with change he skirts the issue or his supporters cry foul and pull the race card.....this is BS.........
 
  • #25
Wow, now that you mention it that wording is curious.
 
  • #26
Wow! I don't know anything about this woman but I'm very pleased to see the Repubs are open enough to having a woman as VP. I say this because every "Red State" man I know thinks women are idiots. I suppose she likely has their ideals (i.e. fetus person, oil person, god person, war monger, anti-gay, etc.) but at least it IS a woman. I'll say wow again.
 
  • #27
headed out...........going fishing, hiking and hunting for 3 days and not have to deal with any politics.......got to get back to living the good life.......hopefully it wont rain.........cyas later..................
 
  • #28
Indeed?!?

And then I see on CNN which on my screen in a minimized window reads "McCain taps Alaskan Gov..."

Am I the only one who finds the wording... curious?



Also:


WOW! This thread is just FULL of surprises! :chuckle:
 
  • #29
Reasons why Palin is a bad choice:

1) She has virtually no experience. She has only a bachelors degree in journalism from the University of Idaho, and was a pageant queen, a sports reporter, and a fisherman before becoming mayor of a town of 9700. Prior to her recent election as governor, that's it. And yet she's a heartbeat away from the Presidency, a valid concern with the elderly cancer survivor, McCain.

2) She's staunchly anti-abortion.

3) She's favors teaching creationism in science class (yikes).

4) She's an oil person. For Anwar drilling and off-shore drilling. Her husband works for BP. We need a break from these oil people.

5) She's opposes equal rights for gay people.

That's a start, and I think this really undermines McCain's argument that Obama lacks the necessary experience for President. A VP must be ready to assume the Presidency just like the candidate themselves. How can they argue about Obama's youth and inexperience now without undermining themselves? To me, this reads like an insulting and cynical attempt to garner Hillary Clinton voters just because he picked a woman.

Capslock

1) She actually has more experience making decisions than Obama. Has actually made more choices in office than Obama has.

2) I feel ya here but would not stop me from voting for her.

3) I kinda feel that a hybrid of creationism and evolution actually happened.

4) That may be so, but you have to drill and get us through til the alternative energy options are finished and readily available. I hate giving the amount of money we are giving to the Arabs.

5) This is another thing I may not agree she is for, but it will not stop me from voting for McCain and her.

I still love ya Max even though we almost always disagree in politics He he he.
 
  • #30
actually she is very pro alternative energy........she just realizes we need oil to(have you for got plastics, fertilizers, hebicides and pesticides come from oil) and to get oil we have to punch holes......if your against doing this dont complain about $4 a gallon gas...

as far as experiance Obama has been in the senate for what? 2 years? critiquing government from the sidelines......Palin has been governor for 2 year putting forth and running policies, done wonders with Alaskas budget......deals with foriegn nations on a regular basis(or have you forgotten Alaska is bordered by Canada and Russia?)....she has as muuch and i say more experiance than Obama........

i like that Palin is short on DC experiance....means she aint been touched by its back room politics......thats a GOOD thing...hell its a plus alot of ppl have been trying to give Obama........bet yah she kicks Bidens rear in the VP debate....Palin is not just another pretty face....she has some of the highest approval ratings of any governor in the US......

Woo Hoo Rattler!!! WOO HOO!!!! YEAH BUDDY! We have a winner with them two! I know you don't care for McCain, but I do and I am going to give the GOP another chance because the dems just stink. LOL
 
  • #31
rattler,
I simply look at what works and what doesn't, what achieves the aspirations I have versus what doesn't. Objectively and by the numbers, the economy has done better under liberal Presidents who favor a social safety net than under conservative Presidents. See chart here, that was even before the last four bad economic years:
http://www.eriposte.com/economy/other/demovsrep.htm

Secondly, the most prosperous countries in the world, the ones with the highest standards of living (and it's not us), have a mix of capitalist and "socialist" economic policies. Assuming things like public education are "socialist."

So yes, I favor the candidate that sees the screwing we're getting from the oil companies as something that needs to be fixed. We have no shortages of places to drill, and giving oil companies long-term leases well before we even have the capacity to refine that much oil or drill what we have is just a pandering giveaway to the oil interests, particularly ironic given they are the ones behind the screwing. And drilling won't change the price of oil in any noticeable way.

The companies like you and I run are nothing like Exxon. They bear no relationship whatsoever. And not just for the size of them, but also for the fact that they hold a special responsibility to society, as they are the guardians of a necessary commodity for everyone. They are in a situation which requires MORE regulation. We, in contrast, run small businesses that require less regulation, both for our size and the fact that people could live with or without us. I believe that an Obama administration would provide the best environment for small businesses.

The last eight years have not been good on almost any front. Clinton's economy was excellent as a whole and we were at peace. I believe this is no coincidence, and have no choice but to hold candidates and parties responsible for their performance. I've only touched on the economy here, but I also support Obamas's anti-war stance, and the bulk of his social positions. Now, you could do a lot worse than Palin if you're McCain. And I appreciate that it's going to be historic either way. But to me, this is an easy vote.

Capslock
 
  • #32
Oh, and it's all good JB! Rattler you and I always disagree on this stuff. So what? I like a good political dust-up among friends!

Capslock
 
  • #33
It's not about teaching a religion; it's about teaching an alternative view other than the one currently taught...

The problem with that is creationism has zero evidence for it and all current hard evidence disproves it. If it was anything close to a scientific theory, it would have been dropped the moment the hypothesis didn't add up to evidence.

which implies we all evolved by pure chance from primordial soup.

Thats incorrect.
 
  • #34
I got this in an email and found it disturbing.
From Dreams of My Father: 'I ceased to advertise my mother's race at the age of 12 or 13, when I began to suspect that by doing so I was ingratiating myself to whites.'

From Dreams of My Father : 'I found a solace in nursing a pervasive sense of grievance and animosity against my mother's race.'

From Dreams of My Father: 'There was something about him that made me wary, a little too sure of himself, maybe. And white.'

From Dreams of My Father: 'It remained necessary to prove which side you were on, to show your loyalty to the black masses, to strike out and name names.'

From Dreams of My Father: 'I never emulate white men and brown men whose fates didn't speak to my own. It was into my father's image, the black man, son of Africa , that I'd packed all the attributes I sought in myself , the attributes of Martin and Malcolm, DuBois and Mandela.'

And FINALLY the Most Damming one of ALL of them!!!

From Audacity of Hope: 'I will stand with the Muslims should the political winds shift in an ugly direction.'

Also you cannot go taxing the hell out of business. Because just like now companies never pay taxes anyway. They pass the cost down to the consumer anyway. The people are always paying the corporate taxes.
 
  • #35
I don't find any of those quotes in the least bit troubling. The first ones are all just relating his thoughts and journey as a young person, both things he regrets and things he's proud of. It seems a bit disingenuous to pluck them out without context like that.

The last one isn't the least bit damning. I'm with him on it 100%. The American ideal is: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: That all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights; that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness." Among these rights is freedom of religion. Should the political winds shift in an ugly direction, and Muslims become deprived of this right, on that day I also will stand with the Muslims. I'd hope you would too, as it's the American thing to do.

Capslock
 
  • #36
Wow! I just heard this news about McCain's VP choice..(was a busy day at work today!)

so..now BOTH partys are running:

One "old white guy" with years of washington experience, your classic American president type of the last 230 years, who is actually qualified to do the job.

And one "im NOT an old white guy/ im a washington outsider" with virtually no experience..

basically identical tickets now..both side's VP choices were obviously very carefully planned.
(which is the norm of course..most campaigns are very smart about this..)

The next few months are going to be very interesting!

Scot
 
  • #37
Scot, for once we agree 100%! :D

Capslock
 
  • #38
I prefaced my statement by saying I am not advocating Creationism to be taught in schools... and figured that would help me avoid a debate, but apparently some of you smell blood.

Again, I am not trying to prove Creationsim, but be careful what you say. Though one can't prove Creationism is true in the current situation, you cannot make an absolute assertion that it is false.

And let's face it... the theory of evolution is not without its laughable mistakes... Millers original experiment, still taught in classrooms to this day... is a joke. Again, just to concede, I am not saying evolution is not true. Please read and comprehend this.

If you want to educate me on the basics of evolution and tell me what is lacking in my statement, let's take this to PMs... I would be intrigued hearing how full fledged micro evolution does not involve pure chance.

A bit side tracked, are we not? How about getting back on topic.


The problem with that is creationism has zero evidence for it and all current hard evidence disproves it. If it was anything close to a scientific theory, it would have been dropped the moment the hypothesis didn't add up to evidence.



Thats incorrect.
 
  • #39
Well said! I entirely agree, it'll be an uphill battle from here.

Wow! I just heard this news about McCain's VP choice..(was a busy day at work today!)

so..now BOTH partys are running:

One "old white guy" with years of washington experience, your classic American president type of the last 230 years, who is actually qualified to do the job.

And one "im NOT an old white guy/ im a washington outsider" with virtually no experience..

basically identical tickets now..both side's VP choices were obviously very carefully planned.
(which is the norm of course..most campaigns are very smart about this..)

The next few months are going to be very interesting!

Scot
 
  • #40
Although I don't necessarily agree with teaching Creationism in the classroom, you made a very common blunder... and that is to tie it to Christianity. Creationism is an overall concept held by all different faiths... there are respected scientists from Judaism, Christianity, Islam, etc. that ascribe to this concept.

It's not about teaching a religion; it's about teaching an alternative view other than the one currently taught... which implies we all evolved by pure chance from primordial soup.
Your right about the creationism blunder of course, but I don't actually think its a big deal since the creation story that would be taught would in our country would almost definetly be from a Christion perspective.
I say leave Social Studies to discuss creationism. Science class should be about science.
Anyway back on topic...yep uphil battle. For sure.
 
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