People are pouring out into the streets...

[rattler]

whats funny is for the most part this whole thing hasnt hurt where i live......why? cause the local banks are a lil more cautious in lending money which is why ive got a mortgage i can afford though there are plenty of places locally where i could have paid 4 times as much......havent heard of any more foreclosures than 10 years ago

this happened cause banks started getting really loose in their lending habits.....they did not go through the effort of actually seeing if the borrowers could pay back long term.....it actually would have worked fine if the housing bubble hadnt burst cause those who couldnt afford it could just sell their homes and their arse was covered.....this happened cause Fanny Mae and Freddy Mac were giving lots of money to low income families so they could buy a house when they really couldnt afford it....anytime those in congress cried out that the bubble was going to burst(Ron Paul did in 2002, McCain did in 2005, Bush tried to push forth more oversight on these two programs 17 times this year alone) they were met with cries or racism and elitism and money kept being given to ppl it shouldnt have been........it was flat out stupid......

AIG aint broke, its just got all its liquid assets tied up in property and businesses it cant sell at the moment like they could 10 years ago.....they own tons of property and business interests worth mega bucks.....they just cant sell much of anything to meet their liquid capitol needs

if you or i lended money to a friend to help him buy a house or if i paid cash for a $300,000 house that 6 months later was only worth $200,000 everyone here would be telling me tough luck that will teach yah ..........but the feds do it then expect us to foot the bill for their stupidity.....

 

[jm82792]

My grandpa,who was a banker got out of giving out loans since he barely made it since he was honest while everyone else made much more money by pelting off loans to people who can't afford them. He did banking for 30 years but he kept away from loans since he knew that they couldn't afford them. Now multiply the unethical(the banks rules/qualifications?) bankers,the thought of commissions times millions that's what happened(I hope I am somewhat right )
That is/was a root problem,people don't/didn't give a rip about their clients(generally not always) and give them loans they can't afford. The economy degraded from bad wall street practices,the people who had the loans suffered the banks suffered then everything turned to crap.
I know,it's an over simplification of what happen but that is what I saw what happened.

 

[scottychaos]

Im really torn on all of this..

First, ideally I think the government should just stay out of it..
if banks fail due to their own greed and stupidity, they DESERVE to fail and should fail..

but..if its true that things will get much worse *without* a bailout, which is probably true, then I think the govt should do something...but what exactly? thats the big question of course..

In an ideal world, the government should NOT regulate business..capitalism should be allowed to run on its own and govt should stay out of it..

but! a thought that came to me in the last few days..
people (in a "humans in general" sense) are naturally greedy and corrupt..
thats where this whole mess started..plain old fashioned greed, must get more money more money more money..so people cant be TRUSTED to do the right thing if left alone!
if government *doesnt* regulate, then the system will run out of control and collapse due to basic human greed and dishonesty..which is exactly what happened and caused all this.

Of course, the government (both partys) is ALSO clueless and corrupt and cant be trusted to run anything..so having the government attempt to regulate the economy and regulate business is a case of "the inmates running the asylum"..

IMO, like Rome, the American empire is due for a collapse..probably not in our lifetimes, but soon..within 100-200 years I think our country will completely collapse and we will be invaded by China..

its sad..but I think its already too late to prevent it..
our entire economy for decades has not been based on reality..
our government has been spending WAYYYY more than it earns..
eventually the world is going to come to collect the debt, and we wont be able to pay it..
this can only continue for so long..the bailout, if it happens, will only be a band-aid on a gushing wound..no one is willing to address the REAL problems! politicans, as always, only tell us what we want to hear..

im so glad my wife and I dont have any kids, I wouldnt want to subject them to the future..we only have 40-50 more years to worry about!

Scot

 

[swords]

Scot, you're creeping dangerously close to escaping the ideas we've been conditioned to believe in this country... before long you'll be totally "free"! lol!

 

[nepenthes_ak]

We need another Depression, maybe Americans might learn this time around.

 

[Baylorguy]

This is not a new development. This is due to years of handling finances, both by consumers and businesses, irresponsibly. It just so happens to be a single link in a chain of poor financial management that started more than two decades ago. In America we don’t want it; we want everything, including things we cannot afford, right now. This tendency for instant gratification has been marked with a red flag for years, yet the trend has continued. Just as the oil crunch served as a wakeup call, I believe this may force all of us to be more responsible with finances. We dug this hole ourselves (well, we did along with some idiotic upper management in the financial sector), and we are going to have to work together to get out of it.

If we do give somewhat of a bailout plan, remove the people from their leadership roles that weren’t able to stem the tide. I refuse to let almost a trillion dollars be placed in the hands already stained with blame for the mortgage crisis.

If the government doesn't bail us out in some way, whether it is via a phased process, or a lump sum standpoint, we are going to be hurting. Anyone that says otherwise needs to comprehensively study the situation we're in. As my buddy Caro used to say... "it ain't lookin good."

 

[ktulu]

"One thing we learn from history is that men never learn from history"

This is not a new problem, this problem is something that was coming for a long time because of the way Americans as a whole live their lifestyle. I know not everyone is guilty of living about their means but the American culture as a whole says put it on credit I will pay for it tomorrow. And that works until things go wrong and then it all collapses like a house of cards. Unfortunately the bailout is a solution to tomorrows problem not to the one for next week figuratively speaking. The American culture has a tendency to be short sighted looking only at the immediate or most foreseeable problems and ignoring long term problems as a result. This whole crisis is the perfect example. People only looked at what they could buy tomorrow and not how much it was going to cost them next week. This was inevitable. Hopefully it teaches Americans to stop letting advertisers and credit companies tell them what they need to be living the good life. This will just create more problems later rather than sooner. Its time to shift some major financial and belief patterns in America or we will just destroy ourselves.

As for the collapse of the American empire I agree that it is looming closer than we want to believe. I don't believe it can be saved intact but if we act properly and soon I believe we can still maintain some level of affluence on the world scale. The UK survived the collapse of its empire and now has a very respectable standard of living and a good stable economy relatively speaking. Its time America realizes our glory days are over and that we being to grow up and act like a responsible nation.

 

[Baylorguy]

I agree about our culture. A very dangerous outlook on things. Saying the fall of our empire is possibly at hand though, is a bit premature. Most countries have been through a dramatic financial crisis, and many have survived.

I say we start collecting the trillions of dollars in debt owed to us by other nations that we bailed out

"One thing we learn from history is that men never learn from history"

This is not a new problem, this problem is something that was coming for a long time because of the way Americans as a whole live their lifestyle. I know not everyone is guilty of living about their means but the American culture as a whole says put it on credit I will pay for it tomorrow. And that works until things go wrong and then it all collapses like a house of cards. Unfortunately the bailout is a solution to tomorrows problem not to the one for next week figuratively speaking. The American culture has a tendency to be short sighted looking only at the immediate or most foreseeable problems and ignoring long term problems as a result. This whole crisis is the perfect example. People only looked at what they could buy tomorrow and not how much it was going to cost them next week. This was inevitable. Hopefully it teaches Americans to stop letting advertisers and credit companies tell them what they need to be living the good life. This will just create more problems later rather than sooner. Its time to shift some major financial and belief patterns in America or we will just destroy ourselves.

As for the collapse of the American empire I agree that it is looming closer than we want to believe. I don't believe it can be saved intact but if we act properly and soon I believe we can still maintain some level of affluence on the world scale. The UK survived the collapse of its empire and now has a very respectable standard of living and a good stable economy relatively speaking. Its time America realizes our glory days are over and that we being to grow up and act like a responsible nation.

 

[mabudon]

I say we start collecting the trillions of dollars in debt owed to us by other nations that we bailed out

That should be a nice downpayment on the incredible amount of money China might want back in the NEAR future

 

[Baylorguy]

Definitely want to stay on China's good side.

That should be a nice downpayment on the incredible amount of money China might want back in the NEAR future

 

[Est]

The plan as of Sep 28

Since the plan is supposed to be published but at last check the links weren't working, here's a link to the current draft of the "Economic Stabilization Act" calling for $800 billion (reported). Going through it is kinda tough though, of course.

I love Wikileaks. One of the finest resources we have these days.

 

[Capslock]

They should riot in the streets! We're giving away a crazy amount of money to the very executives and cronies who created this mess. While normal people struggle to afford health care, and send their kids to declining schools, and while their infrastructure crumbles, we get to sent hundreds of billions to bail out people who have already fleeced us for years.

And rattler, don't buy the hype - McCain and Bush have pushed for deregulation for decades. In March of THIS YEAR, he said this:
“In financial institutions, there is no substitute for adequate capital to serve as a buffer against losses. Our financial market approach should include encouraging increased capital in financial institutions by removing regulatory, accounting and tax impediments to raising capital.“

His chief economic adviser, Phil Gramm, has been the architect if this deregulation. Which gives him the double distinction of being at fault for both the energy crisis AND the mortgage crisis:

"Gramm slipped an Enron-backed provision into the Commodities Futures Modernization Act that exempted from regulation energy trading on electronic platforms.Then, over the next year, Enron – with Gramm’s wife Wendy serving on its board of directors – worked to create false electricity shortages in California, bilking consumers out of an estimated $40 billion."

And now with the mortgage crisis, we have the fox in charge of the henhouse. The Treasury Secretary, who will dole out the money at his whim, is none other than the former CEO of Goldman Sachs. Guess whose friends will get the hundreds of billions of dollars?

Meanwhile, what about those people who are being foreclosed upon? Oh that's right, they get no bailout, no protection, nothing. What they get is to lose their homes (to the banks that we are bailing out). Because evidently, we have a government representing and protecting corporate interests, and which has no interest in the citizens they are supposed to be representing.

And the Democrats are no alternative. They have gone along with this from the beginning. They also represent their business and corporate interests. Only. Just like the GOP, that's who financed their election.

So yes, people should be pouring into the streets. We need to take our country back from the looters and vultures. And it won't happen by voting for McCain or Obama. It can only happen by a complete change in awareness, attitude, and level of anger in the public. We need a soft revolution - we need to gut BOTH parties, reform our campaign finance system, and change our government's priorities away from the giant, non-capitalist corporations and to the regular people who go to work, start businesses, and pay taxes.
/rant

Capslock

 

[rattler]

Capslock as far as McCain he stated this in January 2005:

Mr. President, this week Fannie Mae’s regulator reported that the company’s quarterly reports of profit growth over the past few years were “illusions deliberately and systematically created” by the company’s senior management, which resulted in a $10.6 billion accounting scandal.

The Office of Federal Housing Enterprise Oversight’s report goes on to say that Fannie Mae employees deliberately and intentionally manipulated financial reports to hit earnings targets in order to trigger bonuses for senior executives. In the case of Franklin Raines, Fannie Mae’s former chief executive officer, OFHEO’s report shows that over half of Mr. Raines’ compensation for the 6 years through 2003 was directly tied to meeting earnings targets. The report of financial misconduct at Fannie Mae echoes the deeply troubling $5 billion profit restatement at Freddie Mac.

The OFHEO report also states that Fannie Mae used its political power to lobby Congress in an effort to interfere with the regulator’s examination of the company’s accounting problems. This report comes some weeks after Freddie Mac paid a record $3.8 million fine in a settlement with the Federal Election Commission and restated lobbying disclosure reports from 2004 to 2005. These are entities that have demonstrated over and over again that they are deeply in need of reform.

For years I have been concerned about the regulatory structure that governs Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac–known as Government-sponsored entities or GSEs–and the sheer magnitude of these companies and the role they play in the housing market. OFHEO’s report this week does nothing to ease these concerns. In fact, the report does quite the contrary. OFHEO’s report solidifies my view that the GSEs need to be reformed without delay.

I join as a cosponsor of the Federal Housing Enterprise Regulatory Reform Act of 2005, S. 190, to underscore my support for quick passage of GSE regulatory reform legislation. If Congress does not act, American taxpayers will continue to be exposed to the enormous risk that Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac pose to the housing market, the overall financial system, and the economy as a whole.

I urge my colleagues to support swift action on this GSE reform legislation.

 

[Finch]

McCain has always sort of been an oddball republican, odd ball politician which is part of the reason I have always liked him better than most. I loved it it when he called some of the big televangelist leaders "agents of intolerance". Of course he needs their votes now so he is sucking up to many of the groups he one spoke poorly about, but such is politics I suppose.


As far as the fall of America predictions, I would point out Rome existed in some form or another for thousands of years. Every country falls but any sort of predictions at this point are bound to be 100% inaccurate. If it happens it happens, but what and how... I ignore all of those from people. When and how... impossible to see the future of nations as it is to predict the way technology progresses. I still want my personal jetpack.

 

[Capslock]

That's the problem, Finch. You never know which McCain you are going to get - the one that makes speeches saying one thing, or the one that surrounds himself with corporate lobbyists of the worst sort at other times. The "regulator", or the one that cozies up to the worst of the deregulators, Phil Gramm. When McCain made the speech that Rattler cited above, the Congress and Presidency were both in GOP control.

Since then, Bush appointed Henry Paulson, former Goldman Sachs CEO, to replace Snow as the Treasury Sec'y. In 2005 and 2006, Paulson made $37million and over $16million in compensation from Goldman Sachs. He is personally worth over $700million.

The problem here is that the fox is put in charge of the hen house. There's no indication that the Democrats are any better except that at least Obama gave some lip-service to protecting homeowners in the debate this week. McCain didn't even try.

Capslock

 

[rattler]

When McCain made the speech that Rattler cited above, the Congress and Presidency were both in GOP control.

yeah but the measure never made it out of committee.......can yah guess who the committee chairman was? Senator Dodd........the one recently exposed as being the biggest recipient of Fannie Mae and Freddie Macs gifts with Obama being a close second....yep Obama is really concerned bout the average home owner.....actions speak louder than words Cap's....Obama is as much to blaim for this as anyone cause he was taking money from them but what i cant understand is why in a senator only half way through their first term the #2 person to recieve money from something like this? Dodd dont surprise me in the least but why in the hell did the send Obama over $100,000?

 

[Finch]

The house rejected the bailout bill.



This whole thing is a macroeconomic issue, and I do not know anything about macroeconomics. I really cant tell of this is a good or bad thing.

 

[Capslock]

Misleading, rattler. Obama has received campaign contributions in the paltry amount of $100,000 from Fannie Mae and Freddie Mack employees. Individuals. Not the company itself. McCain has received money from them as well. But these amounts are comically trivial.

But McCain's campaign manager, Rick Davis, has received MILLIONS of dollars in direct fees from Freddie and Fannie as a lobbyist on their behalf. Believe me, this is not a comparison that will be favorable to McCain, who has surrounded himself with the worst of the corporate lobbyists.

Max

 

[Capslock]

Finch,
Nobody really knows! However, it looks like people simply don't trust Bush to point the way to a solution, even if some unimpressive oversight provisions are added.

Unfortunately "economics" is about the softest science there is. There is no certainty there at all, and it's as much an art as a science. Wall Street will not react favorably to this bill going down, that much is for sure. But it's the gambling, irresponsible nature of Wall Street that got us into this mess, so perhaps they shouldn't be happy. We've coddled them enough!

The amount of money in this bailout bill was comical and absurd. It goes way past the value of all the bad mortgages out there, and I feel like we'd be better off just paying off the mortgages. But we seem to be caring more about protecting the reckless investors than the homeowners. Maybe the investors and bankers need a good kick in the junk.

Capslock

 

[rattler]

as far as im concerned the banks that did idiotic lending should be allowed to go out of business......if i do something financially stupid with my newspapers im out of a business and a job......a bail out sucks, letting the banks fold sucks......however im for the one that gets the idiots punished for their stupidity, flooding the market with $$ just cause we have the presses to print it is stupid and i cant see anyway where it wont devalue our dollar that is already hurting........in the long run i thik a bit of a depression will help knock alot of folks back into reality.....a bailout is only going to encourage this kinda behavior.......