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Obama and ACORN, the truth.

  • #41
Botanicadenta: The anti-God-in-control-of-my-life thing was there from the beginning. Also, not every "Born Again" Christian thinks that God did His thing for us in the year 4004 BC, with 6 consecutive 24 hour periods. I certainly don't. My wife doesn't. Not that He couldn't have. It's just that things don't necessarily have to be translated as such, nor does He have to be restricted. Would it be any less His doings if things took trillions of years? That's what it all comes down to: Did He do it or was it "random chance"? Does it matter how long or what method?

I agree..and to further shatter the "Conservative Christian" stereotype,
I am also a Christian who happens to believe:

The earth is millions of years old.
Humans did NOT live among dinosaurs!
Evolution is real.
Literal creationism (adam and eve) and the Noah's ark story are myths.
Gays are created gay and should have the right to be married.
None of these beliefs are incompatable with Christianity.
There are more of us than you might think..

Scot
 
  • #42
I notice how that article ends:

"Despite concerns about voter fraud, those who've taken a close look say it's extremely rare.

A 2005 report by the League of Women Voters of Ohio and the Coalition on Homelessness and Housing in Ohio found that out of about 9 million votes cast in the state from 2002-2004, there were just four fraudulent ballots."

I still don't discount my own theory that I mentioned earlier, that it was some "freelancer" trying to get any/all ACORN voter registrations thrown out. Considering how they are seen and called "communist" by the conservatives. Which shows you what little they actually "know" about communism! I just can't help but laugh at all of this political insanity season. I worked with a guy for a couple years who seemed to think he was working for good ol' Joe McCarthy to root out the subversive Reds. He was always calling this and that "communist" if he didn't like it. He even told me one day how the words "ecology" and "wetlands" were made up by communist lesbian psychologists! lol! But I'm getting off message and having fun again.;)

According to that article, the person trying to get people to re-register didn't even know how the ACORN employees are paid... It's odd to me how all these conservatives in battle ground states are suing for investigations into voter registration fraud because they are so positive that there are fraudulent ballots mixed in. Nobody's answered how they know there are fraudulent ballots mixed in... I saw one republican on TV saying that "since there were no fraudulent ballots turned in, that proves they weren't checking so we are suing the state election board."

It all seems just too circumstantial to me, in my eyes it's still an attempt to disenfranchise the new but mainly the lower class voters. Which has always been a cornerstone of Burke's form of Conservativism and Smith's vision of Capitalism, the poor are merely labor pawns of the "holy economy". Only imagined little better than slaves of the system because in these philosophies the masters have no need to feed them and see them merely as tools of the trade. Just so you don't boil over like a tea kettle again, this is not alluding to black slaves but an outlook upon all the lower or "working" classes in these two classical political ideologies.

Conspiracy theory anyone :banana2:

Here's an update for you, since you're probably don't know much about Cleveland, or Cuyahoga county in general. It's run by Democrats. Cleveland/Cuyahoga county has voted Democrat for a LONG, LONG TIME. I don't even remember a Republican being around when I was a kid. It's a guarantee Democrat win in Ohio. Look at Dennis Kucinich for example. Democrats who are on the board called for the investigation. Not Republicans.
 
  • #43
I agree..and to further shatter the "Conservative Christian" stereotype,
I am also a Christian who happens to believe:

The earth is millions of years old.
Humans did NOT live among dinosaurs!
Evolution is real.
Literal creationism (adam and eve) and the Noah's ark story are myths.
Gays are created gay and should have the right to be married.
None of these beliefs are incompatable with Christianity.
There are more of us than you might think..

Scot

I honestly don't believe either view has higher ground. If there is a God, then anything is possible. To believe in God and suggest that it would be impossible for him to create the Earth in 6,000 w/e years, would be belittling God. Where do you place your faith then, the God you believe that exists, or science which is as solid as quick sand? For example, carbon dating has been questioned just as recent as last month:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/09/080910104202.htm

I also think it's dangerous when you cut and paste parts of the Bible you want to believe or interpret certain parts as "myths". You might as well call the whole thing a myth then.

Now enough of this, lets get back on track please.
 
  • #44
I honestly don't believe either view has higher ground. If there is a God, then anything is possible. To believe in God and suggest that it would be impossible for him to create the Earth in 6,000 w/e years, would be belittling God. I think it's dangerous when you cut and paste parts of the Bible you want to believe or interpret them as "myths". You might as well call the whole thing a myth then.

Now enough of this, lets get back on track please.


Im not saying its impossibe that He could create the earth in 6,000 years..
All im saying is that the evidence (namely..the planet Earth) shows that He didnt..

very different ideas..

and EVERY christian "cuts and pastes" parts of the bible to fit their beliefs..
its impossible to do otherwise..

anyone who says they believe or follow the bible 100% is lying..it cant be done.
We all filter our beliefs through our culture and our modern knowledge..it cant be helped.

Check out this book:

http://www.ajjacobs.com/books/yolb.asp

My wife got it for me for Christmas last year..because im such a "religious skeptic"..
I loved it!
very interesting concept..

Scot
 
  • #45
6,000 w/e years, would be belittling God. Where do you place your faith then, the God you believe that exists, or science which is as solid as quick sand?

First off, no one said it was impossible for God to do that, we said he didn't do that. Why would he? Why wouldn't he watch such a terribly beautiful panopathy of chemical existence for billions upon billion of years of His eternal existence, a symphony of physics and probability leading up to the crescendo of life? I think it's belittling to think god is not such a master artist as that.

Secondly, read the article please. It's more related to global warming that the age of the Earth, detailing in speak I try my best not to dwell on for too long that the previous conceptions of carbon levels in the ebb of the planet is different than once thought, and that they'd have to readjust the conventional levels of ambient carbon on the planet at certain times to increase the accuracy of the readings. You tell me where it says that Carbon Dating is bunk.
 
  • #46
I've got no problems with Adam & Eve and Noah's Ark. I believe that they happened. Just how close the oral tradition is to reality is anybody's guess. But both stories do tell human history and God's involvement with humans.

As to gays, I read that some have a genetic disposition, a tendency and I also read that homosexuality is the direct result of abuse. I wouldn't be surprised if both are trues, as opposed to one extreme or the other. I really don't know how a gay person thinks or feels...
 
  • #47
Im not saying its impossibe that He could create the earth in 6,000 years..
All im saying is that the evidence (namely..the planet Earth) shows that He didnt..

very different ideas..

and EVERY christian "cuts and pastes" parts of the bible to fit their beliefs..
its impossible to do otherwise..

anyone who says they believe or follow the bible 100% is lying..it cant be done.
We all filter our beliefs through our culture and our modern knowledge..it cant be helped.

Check out this book:

http://www.ajjacobs.com/books/yolb.asp

My wife got it for me for Christmas last year..because im such a "religious skeptic"..
I loved it!
very interesting concept..

Scot

There's a difference between following or obeying the Bible to a tee, and believing that it is all true. Obviously everybody stumbles from time to time, but that doesn't mean the Bible therefore isn't true in its entirety. I don't compare the Bible to modern science and overwrite whatever section of the Bible it disagrees with.
 
  • #48
First off, no one said it was impossible for God to do that, we said he didn't do that. Why would he? Why wouldn't he watch such a terribly beautiful panopathy of chemical existence for billions upon billion of years of His eternal existence, a symphony of physics and probability leading up to the crescendo of life? I think it's belittling to think god is not such a master artist as that.

When did Darwinism become God's word? It clearly states in Genesis chapter 1 what God did. The picture Genesis paints is a picture where God individually created everything you see today. That totally differs from what you subscribe to. What does time have to do with God being a master artist? He can't be a master artist in 6 days?

Secondly, read the article please. It's more related to global warming that the age of the Earth, detailing in speak I try my best not to dwell on for too long that the previous conceptions of carbon levels in the ebb of the planet is different than once thought, and that they'd have to readjust the conventional levels of ambient carbon on the planet at certain times to increase the accuracy of the readings. You tell me where it says that Carbon Dating is bunk.

I didn't say it was bunk, I said it is faulty and can shift at any given time like the majority of modern science. For example Global Warming. I believe it is only a matter of time before science kills its CO2 crusade and admits that CO2 if at all was only a very minor factor of Global Warming.
 
  • #49
I've got no problems with Adam & Eve and Noah's Ark. I believe that they happened.

But Jim!!! You're a quack if you believe in Adam & Eve and Noah's Ark. You're just like that crazy Palin character! :0o:
 
  • #50
Please don't insult me, especially in a public discussion forum. And don't compare me to the V.P. candidate. That was uncalled for.

It's in the Bible. Why would it be wrong? Is the writer a liar.
 
  • #51
Please don't insult me, especially in a public discussion forum. And don't compare me to the V.P. candidate. That was uncalled for.

It's in the Bible. Why would it be wrong? Is the writer a liar.

I guess you missed the sarcasm. Oh well.
 
  • #52
That was sarcasm? That's where the written word needs a little help... emoticons and "j/k".
 
  • #53
I wonder what we would see if God used emoticons in the bible.

Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the Earth ;)
 
  • #54
Botanicadenta, THAT is a funny thought, you should patent it and get to work, I might almost flip through it if I saw it on shelves- maybe there could be lolcats images mixed in to liven it up , like "I IZ IN YUR GARDEN CORRUPTIN YER KREEASHUNZ"
 
  • #56
haHA! Oh man, the Bible, Internet meme edition.


EDIT: Bugger.

http://www.lolcatbible.com/index.php?title=Main_Page

wow! someone has WAYYY too much time on their hands! ???
they wrote out TONS of verses!

the problem with that is that its funny and clever for about 5 seconds..
after reading one sentence in LOL-cat language you are already bored with it and dont want to read anymore...so 99.9% of that page is wasted..no one will ever read it..

oh well..thats the internet for you! :-O

Scot
 
  • #57
That was sarcasm? That's where the written word needs a little help... emoticons and "j/k".

I did use an emoticon, but apparently it was the wrong one :-)).

Plus I thought you would know that I believe in Adam and Eve and the Ark... I guess I shouldn't assume.
 
  • #58
It cornfused the daylights out of me. *major cognitive dissonance*

LOL! You could put Scot, myself, and you on a continuum, in that order!

I've joked around with my wife about how God could use the Internet to communicate with us humans... sorta like a cyber "handwriting on the wall".

Getting back to an earlier post, before I became a Christian, I would have thought (and did, actually) my IVCF friends at college were nuts when they told me that they prayed and read the Bible and that they knew in their heart that Christianity was / is the truth and that this wasn't a matter of being born to the right family or in the right country or right church or this is psychologically explained, etc...

A Christian could share their conversion experience to another and they would understand each other but to articulate things in explainable terms beyond the Holy Spirit or this "I know that I know that I know", separate and distinct from psychology, just doesn't seem possible - especially to someone who hasn't experienced it or has decided that it's a bunch of garbage. You can't prove the truth about christianity and God providing Jesus as the Savior and all that God wants us to do is put our faith / trust / confidence in Him. From the very beginning, God provided the boundaries and the first humans, knowing right from wrong, chose wrong and their offspring perpetuated the wrong, continually rejecting Him. So rather than keeping humans in this physical life and death and spiritual death cycle, He provided the way in which to break that cycle, through faith Jesus. That didn't make sense to me as a college freshman. But between the Holy Spirit, loving Christian friends, and an openness on my part, that won't make any sense to a non-Christian, I put my faith, with no explainable proof, in Jesus as the promised Messiah. This stuff can't be proved and won't make sense to those who have chosen to reject it. I know... I rejected it for quite awhile.
 
  • #59
So, question for the Christians, where does this leave a person like me? I grew up in the Church, I did everything there was to do, going to church 3 times a week or more, etc. Memorizing verses and stories, getting the 'true love waits' rings for my GF's, all of that stuff.

And then, around 16, I took a look around and realized I was consorting with some of the most villainous, irritating, alienating, and exclusionist people in the town in which I lived. So, with that in mind, I tell you I was Southern Baptist in a small town, From birth till later teens, have quit, and never looked back. Every time I've tried to go since I've had spectacular timing with the services, hearing everything from Money-grab sermons to college youth-groups(literally, 1.5 hours talking about the church needing money, total no-no, AND it was one of those enormous 5-story stadium churches) And preaching the tenants of misogyny in otherwise fairly nice looking establishments.

So, my question is, as a reasonable, logical human being, I'm wondering, is it just me? Or is it possible God doesn't want me in his churches? If timing and calling are tools of the Lord, wouldn't making sure that every sermon I heard was inexorably offensive be a sign? Every time I've reached out I've been sorrowfully disappointed. So perhaps by belief is better, perhaps I just picked the wrong churches, or perhaps it's nothing at all, but in my personal opinion, odds are good that I will be offended any time I walk into a church.

EDIT: Good lord I keep forgetting that this is the ACORN thread.
 
  • #60
EDIT: Good lord I keep forgetting that this is the ACORN thread.
I hate to say it but it's the culture of the party who are prosecuting ACORN which causes these off topic abstractions to come up. That's the Socially Conservative Christians or "Neo-Cons" (hopefully that will enough for me to separate Jim from the rest of the 'flock' ;) ) When I was a kid my mom started going to one of those apocalyptic evangelist churches for a while like Palin grew up in - a friend from work took her and she liked the lively music. But after a while my mom finally decided she wasn't paranoid about the end times and everything else before she went, why should she continue going someplace and start to get that way? There is only one party actively working against letting poor people vote, it's not democrats, independents, libertarians or the green party suing for investigations if there were a more full frontal assault against ACORN then I could see some validity... I still stand for my "conspiracy theory" (I beat ya to it Outsider;) )
 
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