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Thread: Obama and ACORN, the truth.

  1. #25
    Tropical Fish Enthusiast jimscott's Avatar
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    About Obama: I hope ya'll like Biden.... because it wouldn't surprise me that some crazed idiot out there, who hates Blacks, will likely assassinate him. Kennedy was a White dude and look what happened to him!

  2. #26
    herenorthere's Avatar
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    Outsiders, you assume too much. You tell me "not to inject [my] progressive or European ideals that [I] love to cling to." As someone raised in a conservatiove family & Protestant church in conservative areas of the country, it's been a long, slow journey to my current "liberal" self. If I were one to cling to something, I'd be voting Republican. I'm old enough and was conservative enough to have voted Libertarian in 1980 and, after a little moderation with age, for Reagan in 1984. By then, I was surrounded by liberal New England grad students, so am familiar with ideology battles from different sides.

    You said my ideals are European, but European is a pretty inadequate adjective. Their recent political spectrum, after all, has managed to include Hitler and Lenin and everything in between and out on various tangents. Since you bring it up, I'll say that I'm drawn to pragmatism or fallibilism. We should try to reason out what is right, but we might learn we were wrong and we should be prepared to adjust accordingly. I tell people that my core philosophy is that we have to muddle our way through difficult problems. Ideology can get in the way.

    You also said, "It's the same history rewriting BS, where people like [me] like to omit that this country was founded on Judeo-Christian ideals." I don't agree that mysticism and freemasonry played as big a role in the founding of the country as Swords said but, like Jim said, Deism certainly did. The heir to Deism in the US is the Unitarian church and that runs counter to what most people have in mind when they talk about Judeo-Christian Ideals these days. Don't forget what Jefferson did with a bible.

    I sometimes think I'm a Deist, since it follows the path of human reason, not hocus-pocus. Deism isn't watered down Christianity; it just doesn't put any stock in supernatural events or revelations or so on. Not to make light of it, but it basically says God established the rules (laws of thermodynamics, etc.) and lets the universe develop and run itself, without interceding. It's up to people to decide how to behave through their ability to think, not through blind adherence to a supposedly divine book. The major reason I'm so threatened by Theocracy is that it's based on something other than reason.

    By the way, every campaign attracts its share of crackpots and some criminals plus others whose only ambition is to enrich themselves. Don't get obsessed with another candidate's hangers-on unless you're willing to devote equal attention to your own candidate's. In fact, it's wise to pay closer attention to those attaching themselves to your candidate. That's what drove me from Libertarianism after the 1980 election, because I realized I was being conned.
    Bruce in CT

    Madness is something rare in individuals but in groups, parties, peoples, ages it is the rule. Friedrich Nietzsche

  3. #27
    Let's positive thinking! seedjar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outsiders71 View Post
    So Joe, how much do want from Uncle Sam? What does he owe you? What dollar figure do you believe you're ENTITLED to? I'm sorry about your hard life struggles, but you're not the only one. The difference is, I don't believe it's the Governments fault, nor am I entitled to money for my suffering.



    What does the location of the ideals have to do with what I said. Secondly I think it was clear that by European ideals, I was talking about Europe as it is today governmentally and socially. If you want to play Dr. Twist, I can twist your statement as well for I don't believe we ever had any kind of Monarchy here.
    I don't feel that I'm entitled to anything but what I take at the end of the day. But the fact is that I could take a lot more than what you'd say I deserve. I have the know-how to clean out several people's bank accounts with just a few hours' work, and if I really wanted to devote myself to it I could run a phishing scam and do some real redistribution of wealth. The only thing that really stops me is the threat of punishment and my goodwill towards others. If you left redistribution of wealth up to me, I'd come up with a solution you almost certainly wouldn't like - that's why it's so important not to drive the masses to doing it themselves. (Ever read about a little skirmish called the American revolutionary war?) All I want the government to do is
    A) stop smearing the American name internationally (it makes my life harder)
    B) stop allowing the rich disproportionate representation (unconstitutional + leads to A above)
    C) work to ensure the well-being (health, employability, safety) of American citizens and immigrants (see The New Colossus)
    I have a particularly unusual disease for which there are no cures. There is one effective drug treatment, a patented drug that was only recently deregulated beyond military applications. My perscriptions cost approximately $600 a month - more than 75% of my income - and without it I am rapidly becoming unemployable. The manufacturing cost of my medication is dramatically less than this - some sources I've seen say it's about $150 to manufacture a kilogram (my dosage is 400mg/day, this works out to about 5 manufacturing cost for something for which I pay $20 - I believe that's a 40000% markup.) Is that what America is about; exploiting the sick with exclusivity and patents? The only hand-out I want - if you could even call it that - is to pay a fair price for the medication I need to work a full day like everybody else.
    You helped out for a week after Katrina? I'm thoroughly unimpressed. In highschool I volunteered at soup kitchens weekly, taught community classes about invasive species at the local park, and devoted a major portion of my remaining free time to working as a student representative on my school board. I helped net a lot of money for my school and other schools in my district, as well as fix a lot of problems with the way the district did things. Most of those changes weren't implemented until my senior year or after I graduated - the only good I've see from them are the benefits they've brought to a town I don't even live in anymore (and that's 100% OK with me.) And those are just the 100% charitable things that I did on a regular basis - I was also working two jobs at the time so I could buy school clothes and most of my meals, as my mom had been laid off. I could write a page-long list of extracurriculars I did in highschool that also benefited my community. It didn't take a disaster and guilt trips from the 700 Club to get me to get off my butt and lend a hand - that's just who I am.
    As for "new European ideals" or whatever, I think you're full of it. If there's a distinction, clearly elaborate it - don't hide behind nebulous buzzwords that can be conveniently redefined as you lose the argument. If you can't see the contradiction and ambiguity in the statement I replied to, then you shouldn't even be arguing this issue. Have you ever read 1984?
    ~Joe
    o//~ Livin' like a bug ain't easy / My old clothes don't seem to fit me /
    I got little tiny bug feet / I don't really know what bugs eat /
    Don't want no one steppin' on me / Now I'm sympathizin' with fleas /
    Livin' like a bug ain't easy / Livin' like a bug ain't easy... o//~

  4. #28
    swords's Avatar
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    I need to make it clear Freemasonry isn't a "religion", but a school of philosophical inquiry dedicated to the study of religions & mysticism. Hence the Founding Fathers did not actively promote any one religious doctrine over another. Deism certainly played a part in the founding fathers views as much as masonry did. I guess I like to be sure and mention the Freemasons cos mention of them often sets off the fundamentalists who think they're "devil worshipers" out to take over the world. And "none of the sainted Founding Fathers would have anything to do with people like that." (as I've been told by Fundamentalists despite all evidence to the contrary)

    A quote I like from John Adams is: "Ideology has too many letters, it should be shortened to just idiocy."

    I do fear a Theocratic government, of any sort, as I think many people do. These sorts of systems rarely remain benevolent for long. Take a peek at our "enemy" Mahometan Nations over in the middle east, or Israel for that matter. This is what happens when a religion is allowed ultimate power. The US would become the same only run by "Crazy Christians" instead of "Crazy Muslims" and "Crazy Jews". I will do anything I can to stop a move towards any sort of a Theocracy in this country, if it eventually turns that way, I'll still have the option of emigration to one of those evil European nations I love so much.

  5. #29
    Tropical Fish Enthusiast jimscott's Avatar
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    Two of you have expressed fear of Theocracy. Essentially, a government such that humans depend upon God, is scary to the human race. God set up the Children of Israel with Theocracy and the people, by and large, rejected it. They preferred worshipping idols and anything else the surrounding nations came up with. The whole book of Judges is a euphemism for what could go wrong when people turn away from God and put their trust in either another human being or samething manufactured by humans. Read for yourelves; everytime the people, collectively speaking, turned to anything than God, their morality suffered and they ended up in subjugation to other nations. Then God would raise up a leader who actually had faith in Him to deliver them out of the hands of their oppressors. And when he or she died the people went back to rejecting God, perpetuating the same pattern of deplorable morality and oppression. So, logically, why should we be afraid to depend upon God and rush to depend upon ourselves? Are we any different or better than our ancestors?

  6. #30
    herenorthere's Avatar
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    Jim, maybe I'd agree if I considered the bible an accurate and unbiased account of events. But I don't. It offers some great philosophical and ethical points, but the wheat comes with a lot of chaff.
    Bruce in CT

    Madness is something rare in individuals but in groups, parties, peoples, ages it is the rule. Friedrich Nietzsche

  7. #31
    Tropical Fish Enthusiast jimscott's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by herenorthere View Post
    Jim, maybe I'd agree if I considered the bible an accurate and unbiased account of events. But I don't. It offers some great philosophical and ethical points, but the wheat comes with a lot of chaff.
    I know what you're saying. I used to be an atheist. I used to think that the Bible was garbage and religion (all of it) was our species' pathetic way of trying to explain what's going on... and that people who believed in any kind of deity was weak and needed a crutch. Furthermore, I wanted proof of things. Long story short... I never got proof that couldn't be rationalize away. What I did get was enough evidence for me to put my faith / confidence in. I'll never get definitive proof, nor will I ever convince another. It all requires an intentional choice (but not a blind one).

    One further biblical example: When King David did something apparently stupid (counting the fighting men), god gave him three choices for punishment. Two of them involved punishment by other humans. One was by God. He opted for the one where God would be the direct agent. He said that he'd rather fall into the hands of the living God rather than into the hands of men. Such was his faith, in spite of the impending punishment.

  8. #32
    herenorthere's Avatar
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    I'm not an atheist and think being one is no less of a leap of faith than believing in a god.
    Bruce in CT

    Madness is something rare in individuals but in groups, parties, peoples, ages it is the rule. Friedrich Nietzsche

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