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Thread: Obama and ACORN, the truth.

  1. #33
    swords's Avatar
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    Just because someone is not a Christian doesn't automatically make them an atheist. They may be atheist in regards to your particular religion, just as I imagine that being a Christian you're an atheist in regards to Zeus, Thor or Xochipilli. You may giggle but these are all gods who were and still are worshiped by some people just as serious as you are about Jehovah. I consider myself agnostic in regards to any particular sort of higher entity. I've come to the conclusion that all god fantasies (by this I mean: what he looks like, what he says, what he wants, that he is even a "he" or a human, etc) are constructs designed by man since they came from the mind of the man who proclaimed them and are simply a result of his being conscious of his conscious existence, which sometimes in the right frame of mind does seem like an otherworldly presence. Regardless of that, I believe that if there were indeed "one true god" there would only be one god concept in all people from the beginning of time until today. I've read far too much world history, philosophy and "sacred" texts to believe there is any one true path to "god", government or way of thinking about the world. I don't recall who said it but another quote I like is: "Certainty belongs to the man who only owns one book." What this indicates is that if you read numerous books by various authors, you are almost forced to begin thinking more pragmatically and thus breaking out of your imprinted and conditioned reality-tunnel (worldview) of your parents, teachers, mentors, etc. You did change by moving from conservative to democrat, why stop there when there is a whole universe out there to explore my good man! A day spent without reading, learning or doing something new is a wasted day in my eyes.

    As far as a Theocracy goes anyone (government or religious leader) who is telling you they're in daily two way contact with god is someone to keep a trained eye on. I surely do not want that kind of person in charge of my life or the lives of my countrymen for that matter. Freedom of Religion and from religion is a personal choice and guaranteed to us by the Constitution. If you read some of the actual historical accounts of governments run by religions, not just biblical material, you will see that things are not great for everyone. Especially the non-believers of the government religion. The medieval European church-states were no less "crazy" than the middle east is now, in many ways the European church-states were far worse than the middle east is now. The notions of a family-like religiously run government where everybody worships the same and truly loves one another is nice but are Utopian and unattainable. Just like a purely Capitalist or purely Communist state, these ideologies simply do not work for all citizens when they attempt to live up to the ideals. Hence the combination of philosophies and relaxing of the ideological structure to achieve relatively stable and workable states such as the US, Canada, most of Europe and the Scandinavians have. There's those evil European ideas cropping up again

    Let's take "real" Communism for example since it's all the rage (literally in some of this post I guess). In Marx's ideal, several weeks after the revolution the state is supposed to "wither away". Instead the Bolshevik Revolution became what Russia's government is/was/is again/whatever is going on over there now today. China is becoming quite successful with their blend of capitalist economics and "communist" ("proletariat") rule. I surely don't condone China's current regime (actually worse than W) but on the whole, they certainly are getting ahead on the "combined labor" fantasies of some of Marx's original ideas. Take a look at their advances in science, math and production over the US, Yet, neither of these "Communist" governments show any signs to any of us on the outside of their states "withering away" but if you ask a true communist and they will be able to prove that it is withering away - it's just taking a little longer than Marx anticipated! The point of this is that the lofty ideals no matter the mythology or methodology invoked can never live up to the objective reality, absolute power corrupts, absolutely.

  2. #34
    Tropical Fish Enthusiast jimscott's Avatar
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    I never said that just because a person isn't a Christian that they are an atheist. I never even implied it. I just said that this is what I did. There are a whole mess of people in between.

    As to Communism or Socialism or Marxism, my take on the matter is that Marx had a pretty good idea going. Unfortunately, human greed took over the ideal core of ensuring that no one would go without and the next thing ya know, "dictatorship of the Proletariat", meaning that the common people would be in control, instead of one or a few, became dictatorship over the Proletariot. The economic system fused with the political system and the those that could, stomped all over those that couldn't - again. Nothing's changed!

  3. #35
    Nooblet Botanicadenta's Avatar
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    I think the current fear of theocracy stems from the new surge of creationists. With the stacks upon stacks of scientific evidence placing the universe at xBillion years old and the earth at yMillion years old, people are adamant about the fact that the earth is about 6 thousand years old. In this thinking, we prevent scientific progress by denying its utility in things such as, say, deep space observation or the experiments at CERN. How can you condone research that would debunk the bible? Most hardcore creationists would cry foul at such things, the rest of us are pretty derned curious.

    I dunno, I still sit on the fence on a lot of issues, I hate to bring this up in these debates, but I actually look at Metroid Prime 3 for a strange reference in the same way you'd draw reference to a Heinlein book, or something from Richard Bach. In there is a substory for the planet Bryyo Which collapsed in a war between the scientists who mastered technology to a singularity level, and those who had developed mysticism to a tangible 'magical' level(as a result from much of the scientific work). The end result was a planet-wide civil war between old traditions and the shedding of such through science. The ultimate moral was the idea that, for a species to survive through their own future, they require preservation of their spirituality while making use of technology.

    I'm a hard-core anti-extremest. I no more advocate Richard Dawkins completely Godless outlook on things than I would creationist young-Earthers. I think they're both nuts. The quote by Einstein, "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." is something I find to be fitting in these times. We're forging a war between those trying to advance civilization and the staunchly ignorant, no one will win this one, everyone will lose.

    Me personally? Unless we pull the Theory of Everything from bosons in the LHC, it's safe to say that the reason for existence at all is odd in light of the fact that ultimate oblivion would seem to be a more natural state. I'd like to know the origin of all things as much as the next guy, but I don't think crusades are the answer. I also think that our perception of possibility and what it possible/what existence is capable of is juvenile at best. Neither Science nor religion is doing the possibilities justice, and as long as the two stand in each others' way, then it's the human race on the whole that will suffer until they can sort their differences.

    EDIT: Wait, hold on, this is the ACORN thread, that's quite a derailment. I think ACORN got shammed by someone, And history would point towards the republican tactic of driving down the total sum number of voters. But hey, whatever, I'm In Texas, so I get to vote anyway cause they're fairly confident that TX is still a red state. Now if I lived in a battleground state, I'd be worried.

  4. #36
    swords's Avatar
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    Jim, I misinterpreted your statement into the common reaction by many religious persons that if is someone isn't "my" religion they must be an atheist. It's such a common reaction around here (where I live) I tend to believe most people think that way. I try to work against thinking about how other people think but sometimes a fog gets in the way!

    Indeed, just about any of the various political philosophies really are wonderful when read and taken at face value. Marx is no exception, there's nothing I'd like more than to see the state "wither away". For a time I thought Rousseau's "On the Social Contract" was one of the best things I ever read but when one applies critical theory and starts asking questions "what about..." then things start to look a bit grayer and not as black & white. Once some of these ideologies get into motion they can be quite hard if not impossible to stop or change by a new revolution when things go awry as they always have done in the past when specific ideologies are followed (and slowly corrupted). This is why I think the best course for any/all future governments, if we must have one, is to utilize the best ideas from each political philosophy. By "best" I mean any combination of those philosophies that will increase the liberty (freedom), pleasure (happiness) and comfort of existence (standard of living) for all citizens is worth pursuing.

    Hey Botanica, do you know of the religion begun by Tim Zell based on Heinlein's novel "Stranger in a Strange Land", the Church of all Worlds? I've got a bumper sticker of theirs, it's an answer to the Campus Crusade for Christ "I found it!" stickers, it says "Thou art it!" I've also got a Cthulu Cult sticker which says "It found me!"

  5. #37
    Nooblet Botanicadenta's Avatar
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    Holy crap that's awesome! I so want those now. Thanks, Swords, reasons to spend money have increased

  6. #38
    Outsiders71's Avatar
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    ACORN fraud has reached my town:
    http://www.myfoxcleveland.com/myfox/...d=1.1.1&sflg=1

    Your town could be next!
    James 1:17

    "Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows."

  7. #39
    swords's Avatar
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    I notice how that article ends:

    "Despite concerns about voter fraud, those who've taken a close look say it's extremely rare.

    A 2005 report by the League of Women Voters of Ohio and the Coalition on Homelessness and Housing in Ohio found that out of about 9 million votes cast in the state from 2002-2004, there were just four fraudulent ballots."

    I still don't discount my own theory that I mentioned earlier, that it was some "freelancer" trying to get any/all ACORN voter registrations thrown out. Considering how they are seen and called "communist" by the conservatives. Which shows you what little they actually "know" about communism! I just can't help but laugh at all of this political insanity season. I worked with a guy for a couple years who seemed to think he was working for good ol' Joe McCarthy to root out the subversive Reds. He was always calling this and that "communist" if he didn't like it. He even told me one day how the words "ecology" and "wetlands" were made up by communist lesbian psychologists! lol! But I'm getting off message and having fun again.

    According to that article, the person trying to get people to re-register didn't even know how the ACORN employees are paid... It's odd to me how all these conservatives in battle ground states are suing for investigations into voter registration fraud because they are so positive that there are fraudulent ballots mixed in. Nobody's answered how they know there are fraudulent ballots mixed in... I saw one republican on TV saying that "since there were no fraudulent ballots turned in, that proves they weren't checking so we are suing the state election board."

    It all seems just too circumstantial to me, in my eyes it's still an attempt to disenfranchise the new but mainly the lower class voters. Which has always been a cornerstone of Burke's form of Conservativism and Smith's vision of Capitalism, the poor are merely labor pawns of the "holy economy". Only imagined little better than slaves of the system because in these philosophies the masters have no need to feed them and see them merely as tools of the trade. Just so you don't boil over like a tea kettle again, this is not alluding to black slaves but an outlook upon all the lower or "working" classes in these two classical political ideologies.

  8. #40
    Tropical Fish Enthusiast jimscott's Avatar
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    Josh: No harm, no foul! You show great respect for me and my views, however different they may be. That's a lot better than I did as a freshman in college when the my future Christian brethren were sharing the gospel with me!

    Botanicadenta: The anti-God-in-control-of-my-life thing was there from the beginning. Also, not every "Born Again" Christian thinks that God did His thing for us in the year 4004 BC, with 6 consecutive 24 hour periods. I certainly don't. My wife doesn't. Not that He couldn't have. It's just that things don't necessarily have to be translated as such, nor does He have to be restricted. Would it be any less His doings if things took trillions of years? That's what it all comes down to: Did He do it or was it "random chance"? Does it matter how long or what method?

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