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Blatantantly political discussion, but...
- Thread starter Botanicadenta
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Botanicadenta
Nooblet
Botanicadenta
Nooblet
I was hoping for no debates and just a curious sit down to see what everyone felt on the subject.
If you had still said just Staling and Castro I'd still say that's an incredibly lopsided argument. It falls heavily under post hoc ergo propter hoc, declaring that people with even relatively similar views are going to send humanity spiraling into chaos is extremely immature. By this same rote, any Republican is immediately George Bush.
So, if you want to compare dictators, we should disband the republican party immediately because they are doomed to lead America in to continually more ignominus leaderships and eventually we'll just be a police state living on rations and being shipped to wars for all eternity. It's a weak argument, and you, sir, are out of line for trying to make it a valid argument.
And throwing in nazis is just cheap. How do you argue with it? Nazis are the standard for political evil, so any time anyone brings it up it renders others competition impotent, because all you can do is agree. If I were to say "ah, yes, but you see, Nazis had universal heathcare!" or, "Hitler at least paid his army decent wages!" then I would be seen as pro-nazi, and healthcare/wages would then be associated with a genocidal regime. It is the very opposite of effective debate and constructive discussion.
Ah well. I didn't really expect debate to not enter this thread anyway. Good day, do what you will.
If you had still said just Staling and Castro I'd still say that's an incredibly lopsided argument. It falls heavily under post hoc ergo propter hoc, declaring that people with even relatively similar views are going to send humanity spiraling into chaos is extremely immature. By this same rote, any Republican is immediately George Bush.
So, if you want to compare dictators, we should disband the republican party immediately because they are doomed to lead America in to continually more ignominus leaderships and eventually we'll just be a police state living on rations and being shipped to wars for all eternity. It's a weak argument, and you, sir, are out of line for trying to make it a valid argument.
And throwing in nazis is just cheap. How do you argue with it? Nazis are the standard for political evil, so any time anyone brings it up it renders others competition impotent, because all you can do is agree. If I were to say "ah, yes, but you see, Nazis had universal heathcare!" or, "Hitler at least paid his army decent wages!" then I would be seen as pro-nazi, and healthcare/wages would then be associated with a genocidal regime. It is the very opposite of effective debate and constructive discussion.
Ah well. I didn't really expect debate to not enter this thread anyway. Good day, do what you will.
jimscott
Tropical Fish Enthusiast
Finch
Whats it to ya?
the whole point went over your head.......Jim pointed out one aspect of Obama that he was impressed with Obama's speaking abilities....i pointed out that the same sort of thing has been said of some of the worlds worst leaders, actually i would put him closer to Castro than the other two....Castro promised every one similar things that Obama is the number one being "change" yet no one seemed to think to ask what that change would be or how he would go about doing it.......Hitler and Stalin did place blame on certain types of ppl they just took it to a farther extream than anyone imagined.........course the same could be said that some of our greatest leaders were great speakers.......was just pointing out the other side of the coin.....
im all for change, most here know im extreamly unhappy with how things are being done now........however i also have no problems putting those i support under the microscope, hell i said in my first post i dont agree with McCain half the time and i do share some of the same reservations about him as some here, if yah search posts froom 6 months ago you will see he was FAR from my preferred candidate.....it strikes me as funny and scary alot of die hard Obama supporters or just anti-republicans refuse to do the same to their candidates, they accept what ever their person says as the absolute tuth......the same sort of thing is how we wound up with leaders like Stalin, Castro, Hitler, ect.....not enough ppl stopped and asked at what cost do we want our change......im all for throwing each and every person running for political office under the microscope, especially those i support
im all for change, most here know im extreamly unhappy with how things are being done now........however i also have no problems putting those i support under the microscope, hell i said in my first post i dont agree with McCain half the time and i do share some of the same reservations about him as some here, if yah search posts froom 6 months ago you will see he was FAR from my preferred candidate.....it strikes me as funny and scary alot of die hard Obama supporters or just anti-republicans refuse to do the same to their candidates, they accept what ever their person says as the absolute tuth......the same sort of thing is how we wound up with leaders like Stalin, Castro, Hitler, ect.....not enough ppl stopped and asked at what cost do we want our change......im all for throwing each and every person running for political office under the microscope, especially those i support
jimscott
Tropical Fish Enthusiast
Hmmm... I didn't know that. Thanx! Strange that Macchiavelli doesn't elicit that same notoriety.
Although there are a number of crises that need attention, it's become pretty clear that the US is incapable of electing anyone who's willing to tackle them. I really wish we could take the candidates from just about any other country and select from them instead. It's pathetic, but our system is completely broken.
No one can get elected without doing raising some big dollars and, let's face it, those with big dollars to donate to politicians/political parties aren't like the rest of us. Yet they get to decide who the rest of us get to choose from. For me, this election comes down to two major ideas - who is least likely to continue down our current path and who's least likely to do something really stupid. I'm voting for Obama.
Obama was only my 3rd (or maybe it was 4th) choice among the Democrats originally in the race, but I didn't have to think twice about voting for him against Hillary when those were the only two left by the time of the CT primary. The big money people had ensured that I didn'y get to choose one of the better candidates. I told friends that my nightmare scenario was having to choose between Hillary and McCain, but I don't have to think twice about voting for Obama against McCain.
No one can get elected without doing raising some big dollars and, let's face it, those with big dollars to donate to politicians/political parties aren't like the rest of us. Yet they get to decide who the rest of us get to choose from. For me, this election comes down to two major ideas - who is least likely to continue down our current path and who's least likely to do something really stupid. I'm voting for Obama.
Obama was only my 3rd (or maybe it was 4th) choice among the Democrats originally in the race, but I didn't have to think twice about voting for him against Hillary when those were the only two left by the time of the CT primary. The big money people had ensured that I didn'y get to choose one of the better candidates. I told friends that my nightmare scenario was having to choose between Hillary and McCain, but I don't have to think twice about voting for Obama against McCain.
I'm obviously a McCain supporter, so for why I won't vote for Obama:
1) Lack of experience. He's been in the Senate for 4 years, 2 of them campaigning. He has no established record in the Senate, besides being the most liberal senator in the United States.
2) Lack of person. I don't know who he is. There's a lot about his background which is unknown. Some of the people he looks up to and calls them "mentor" are people like Rev. Wright. His other associations are troubling, and the more that we find out about who Obama deals with, the worse it gets. Another example of his mysterious background is his citizenship. It is unclear as of today if Obama is a natural born American citizen.
3) Foreign policy. Since he's become a Senator, he's been openly against the Iraq war. I believe we went in there based on intelligence that we were told was solid. Today we know that evidence is not solid. Regardless, it is fruitless to argue about the origins of the war because in reality it's going on now. Obama rejects this reality and his answer to Iraq is to withdraw the troops. Withdrawing the troops doesn't fix anything. It doesn't help the Iraqi's rebuild their country, and will most likely hand Iraq over to terrorists/Iran. It also doesn't make sense in the number of American lives we lost to just pull out. The mission is so close to being accomplished and he wants to piss on the graves of those who've died and make their sacrifice vain. We don't need another Vietnam. The surge has worked, and continues to make great gains. To this day Obama denies the surge indeed worked, and if was President, wouldn't have given the surge a try. It was John McCain who fought his own party and President, who brought the Surge and Gen. Petraeus to the spotlight. Obama's plan is nothing but raising white flags, tucking tails, and losing.
4) Economics. I believe America is a great place because of Capitalism. Obama wants to spread the wealth around, AKA Socialism. He wants to take money from those who work hard and give it to the many who don't even work. This is the most un-American fundamental idea EVER. His tax plan will hurt businesses, which will in turn hurt jobs. We need to cut taxes and compete with other countries tax rates to keep jobs here at home and to allow people to start more small businesses to increase jobs.
5) Health Care. I don't want Government deciding what kind of health care I need. I also don't think it's right that my tax dollars will fund someone who outright refuses to work so they have health care.
6) Values. Obama has the most radical abortion position in the Senate:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=csrR0bNXbu4
He's for the Freedom of Choice Act and for having tax payer dollars pay for those who have abortions. No thanks.
I believe life starts at conception. It's not in Obama's pay grade to have a position on this matter.
1) Lack of experience. He's been in the Senate for 4 years, 2 of them campaigning. He has no established record in the Senate, besides being the most liberal senator in the United States.
2) Lack of person. I don't know who he is. There's a lot about his background which is unknown. Some of the people he looks up to and calls them "mentor" are people like Rev. Wright. His other associations are troubling, and the more that we find out about who Obama deals with, the worse it gets. Another example of his mysterious background is his citizenship. It is unclear as of today if Obama is a natural born American citizen.
3) Foreign policy. Since he's become a Senator, he's been openly against the Iraq war. I believe we went in there based on intelligence that we were told was solid. Today we know that evidence is not solid. Regardless, it is fruitless to argue about the origins of the war because in reality it's going on now. Obama rejects this reality and his answer to Iraq is to withdraw the troops. Withdrawing the troops doesn't fix anything. It doesn't help the Iraqi's rebuild their country, and will most likely hand Iraq over to terrorists/Iran. It also doesn't make sense in the number of American lives we lost to just pull out. The mission is so close to being accomplished and he wants to piss on the graves of those who've died and make their sacrifice vain. We don't need another Vietnam. The surge has worked, and continues to make great gains. To this day Obama denies the surge indeed worked, and if was President, wouldn't have given the surge a try. It was John McCain who fought his own party and President, who brought the Surge and Gen. Petraeus to the spotlight. Obama's plan is nothing but raising white flags, tucking tails, and losing.
4) Economics. I believe America is a great place because of Capitalism. Obama wants to spread the wealth around, AKA Socialism. He wants to take money from those who work hard and give it to the many who don't even work. This is the most un-American fundamental idea EVER. His tax plan will hurt businesses, which will in turn hurt jobs. We need to cut taxes and compete with other countries tax rates to keep jobs here at home and to allow people to start more small businesses to increase jobs.
5) Health Care. I don't want Government deciding what kind of health care I need. I also don't think it's right that my tax dollars will fund someone who outright refuses to work so they have health care.
6) Values. Obama has the most radical abortion position in the Senate:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=csrR0bNXbu4
He's for the Freedom of Choice Act and for having tax payer dollars pay for those who have abortions. No thanks.
I believe life starts at conception. It's not in Obama's pay grade to have a position on this matter.
geckoman
Football = Life
Agreed.
He also refuses to talk about it?? Shouldn't the president of the US have a crystal clear person? And not be afraid to tell you everything in his life?
Obama's plan is not horrible, but i'm afraid that he won't follow it through.....And a time-table pull out would not work. As soon as we would pull out, all the extremists would rush back in and reak vengance on US friendly people. And he doesn't have the experience that McCain has in these areas.
This is the big one for me, and I can't explain it better than outsiders.
Universal Healthcare in its self is a good idea, but again, there are those out there who just don't want to work. And those who work hard shouldn't have to pay for there health care.
I couldn't agree more. Taxdollars shouldn't pay for abortions. If the government shouldn't interfere with abortion choice than they shouldn't pay for it??
And he voted against the Born Alive Act several times, no "accident" there. A bill that even pro-choice groups supported.Universal Healthcare in its self is a good idea, but again, there are those out there who just don't want to work. And those who work hard shouldn't have to pay for there health care.
Just to clear this up Obama's plan would not "give" health care to anyone, but instead would allow people to BUY coverage through the federal government. This would require you to have money and a job the idea is to cover people who have small businesses and those who work for companies that do not offer coverage an affordable option to get insurance.
Ah it's a fun one today folks!Since were talking Hitler, here's one quote from him most of you will like, for different reasons:
"What luck for politicians that men do not think."
-A. Hitler
I don't understand how my pal Rattler can say that Obama supporters don't examine who they intend to vote for as well. What do you base this conclusion on? Being a political anarchist/nihilist, it takes a hell of lot to impress me and actually go through the humiliating process of registering and voting for some politician. As an armchair psychologist however, I am extremely interested to watch how it pans out in society if he actually wins. This country is still so unbelievably racist, that I think it'll be a whole paradigm shift for a number of Americans - so I'm quite anxious to see it. Did you see Palin's people outside in PA last week, or the "Obama Bucks"- whoof! Just like my own home town! Of course, they say they're not racist, then go back to telling you an "N" joke. Reading in "Look Out Whitey! Black Powers Gon' Get Yo Mamma" by Julius Lester. Written in 1968, sadly many of the arguments against white America are just as valid today, though I will admit much progress has been made. Hell look how far Obis gotten, unthinkable when that book came out.
As for Obis policies, many of them are what I would do if aliens implanted a chip in my brain and I actually wanted to particpate in government somehow believing it was not all a big farce and I could actually do something for the people, not The People - if you get my drift... If he can do the things he says, which as I've said, I doubt because the state is a machine that eats poor people, then I completely support them. I don't support anything McCain says now or did in the past. He voted against Martin Luther King's Day - before he voted for it (remember that line from 2004...), that's just one of his many crimes in my book. If we look at Palin (who may be the pres if old war hero windbag finally kicks off) then we may get the Isolationist Theocrasy we've all be dreaming of. A Gun and a Bible in every home - whether you want one or not "You're fightin' for Jesus now boy!" White Christians with guns scare the pee outta me, if I'm prejudiced against any group it's them due to my experience living around them. Bush was pretty awful but we've never had someone as looney as Pat Robertson or an Apocalyptic Evangelical just a waitin' in the VP position. I guess that may be interesting psychologically for society too...
As far as Abortion goes, I don't believe anyone with male genitalia deserves any say in the matter.
lets see.....you say:
than you say
other than a few socialist type ideals of spreading the wealth around his history dont back up his words......which is my whole freaking point........
for example up until he hit the national campaign trail he was so very anti 2nd amendment its unreal especially in Illinois.....but all the sudden cause every Democrat since Gore has learned that you cant win an election if your anti gun he has stated that he is pro second amendment.....which as i said blows my mind as he is trained in Constitutional law....if he is willing to convolute the 2nd amendment into suiting him i doubt he has much respect of any other amendment......
if your happy with this kinda stuff why dont those of you that want socialized health care and want to spread the wealth around leave those of us that do cling to our guns and religion alone and move to Canada or England where their beliefs are more inline with your own?
than you say
other than a few socialist type ideals of spreading the wealth around his history dont back up his words......which is my whole freaking point........
for example up until he hit the national campaign trail he was so very anti 2nd amendment its unreal especially in Illinois.....but all the sudden cause every Democrat since Gore has learned that you cant win an election if your anti gun he has stated that he is pro second amendment.....which as i said blows my mind as he is trained in Constitutional law....if he is willing to convolute the 2nd amendment into suiting him i doubt he has much respect of any other amendment......
if your happy with this kinda stuff why dont those of you that want socialized health care and want to spread the wealth around leave those of us that do cling to our guns and religion alone and move to Canada or England where their beliefs are more inline with your own?
jimscott
Tropical Fish Enthusiast
Why not? After all, those parts contribute half the DNA to the baby.
Indiana Gardener
Got Drosera?
And I was told I was offensive in an earlier thread! LOL That is blatant discrimination.
So in your opinion, if a husband and wife conceive and the wife doesn't want the baby (even though the husband would if he knew about it) it's the wife's right to go out and get an abortion without telling her husband? I'm sorry, but he should have rights too. As the law currently stands, to kill an unborn child if the mother wants it, is murder. It should be likewise for the father. She didn't make that baby on her own!
Precisely! Until women can reproduce asexually without that aid of a man, that baby is as much his as it is hers. It might be her apartment, but it's his tenant that, in most cases, she permitted to enter! Early evictions are illegal even for renters.
Ok, here is something I want to address... I've been thinking about this a lot lately, and I've sort of been able to put my thoughts in order.
First of all, calling Obama's plan socialism is a straw man. No, it's not. It does share some of the philosophies, but certainly not all of them... That's like saying because I have a nose, and a dog has a nose, that I'm a dog. Phooey.
About the "redistribution of wealth" thing:
Yes, it IS unfair to tax people more because they make more. No one can deny that.
However, much of life is unfair - suck it up.
Why do I say this?
I find most people who make the argument that it's unfair are making an emotional decision based on how they think the world should be, rather than how it IS. The simple fact is that we, as a society, have people that NEED the assistance. Now, I will be the first to admit that the current way we administer this assistance needs is terrible, but we do need it.
If those who make a lot of money don't pay a little extra, those who need it won't get it from the goverment. Like it or not, this destabalizes the country, and makes it more difficult to hold onto the money you do make. Be it from an economic bust, or from just plain burglary.
The simple fact is that sub-par people exist. Yes, they're parasites...and yes they SHOULD NOT need what that need, but they do. If we address that need, it will come back and bite us.
And I hate that, but there it is.
Now, what would get me to vote for McCain? First, GET RID OF PALIN. That lady is a menace. I could go ON AND ON about her.
McCain himself I have less of an issue with....I think his foreign policy should be revamped, but it's not horrible - certainly better than Bush's. But I do think that Obama's will be better for our international image. I know it galls most Americans to think this is important, but it is.
Lastly, Dems are historically more environmentally friendly.....I'd like to see a more clean-energy driven plan from McCain (Obama, too, for that matter). One that kicks out big oil, and puts research into wind power, etc.
But seriously, get that woman off your ballot, and or you have NO shot of getting my vote....and for the record, that has NOTHING to do with her being a woman.
