Blatantantly political discussion, but...

[rattler]

Socialists mainly share the belief that capitalism unfairly concentrates power and wealth among a small segment of society that controls capital, and creates an unequal society. All socialists advocate the creation of an egalitarian society, in which wealth and power are distributed more evenly, although there is considerable disagreement among socialists over how, and to what extent this could be achieved.

how does Obama's wanting to "spread the wealth around"(his words) by taxing those he feels make to much not fall under socialist tendencies?

 

[Botanicadenta]

As far as Abortion goes, I don't believe anyone with male genitalia deserves any say in the matter.

Why not? After all, those parts contribute half the DNA to the baby.

Now see, I'll come out and say that this is pure sexist rhetoric. As a male, my DNA is not worth the opinions as to whether or not a woman decided to possibly mutilate her body irreparably, While abortion is an extremely catastrophic operation, no man should have a say whether or not a woman has the right to make this decision.

By this token, you are saying that a **** victim can not abort without the consent of her rapist, or a dying woman who happens to fall out of favor with her impregnator has to die because the man thinks that, children being the future and all, it's okay for the woman to die just so the infant can survive and the man gets the best of both worlds.

Real cute.

On a second note, I'm curious to know where all this socialist hate comes from, really. The French seem to have it worked out fairly well. Education's free from K through masters degree and nobody pays for cancer treatment. To quote the doctor they interviewed from "Sicko", if you want more than one Saab and a bigger house, maybe you should consider a different career. I've had my experience with American doctors peeling dollars from my wallet for something I diagnosed myself when they offered absolutely no answers whatsoever. Not to mention a tumor surgery that cost thousands of dollars just to reemerge 2 months later bigger than before. I don't think doctors should be allowed to capitalize on sickness and pain... Look around, the evidence of such causing the failings of the US medical system are everywhere. If human life is so damn important, don't you think we shouldn't have to pay to preserve it in light of the unforseen?

 

[jimscott]

Now see, I'll come out and say that this is pure sexist rhetoric. As a male, my DNA is not worth the opinions as to whether or not a woman decided to possibly mutilate her body irreparably, While abortion is an extremely catastrophic operation, no man should have a say whether or not a woman has the right to make this decision.

By this token, you are saying that a **** victim can not abort without the consent of her rapist, or a dying woman who happens to fall out of favor with her impregnator has to die because the man thinks that, children being the future and all, it's okay for the woman to die just so the infant can survive and the man gets the best of both worlds.

If I impregnate a female type person and the relationship goes sour there are two options available, according to the laws of the land.

1) The female of the species decides to keep the baby and furthermore has the right to file for a paternity suit, thus making me responsible for my actions. I have no choice.

2) The female of the species decides to have an abortion, thus leaving me out of the equation and taking the life of an unborn baby (the very life who is truly in a life and death situation).

Why does the outcome of the baby have to determine whether I am liable or not? Why does my contribution have diametrically opposed actions, depending upon the outcome of the baby?

Why does the baby not have a choice when he or she is the most affected by the outcome?

Why is an unborn baby referred to as an unborn baby when the baby gets to live and referred to as a fetus or tissue when its outcome is death?

Why does a doctor turn a blind eye to the hippocratic oath and render it a hypocrytical oath when he or she performs an abortion?

Why isn't an umborn baby considered life when the definition of life is:

Definitions

Conventional definition: The concensus is that that life is a characteristic of organisms that exhibit all or most of the following phenomena:[8][9]

1. Homeostasis: Regulation of the internal environment to maintain a constant state; for example, electrolyte concentration or sweating to reduce temperature.
2. Organization: Being composed of one or more cells, which are the basic units of life.
3. Metabolism: Consumption of energy by converting chemicals and energy into cellular components (anabolism) and decomposing organic matter (catabolism). Living things require energy to maintain internal organization (homeostasis) and to produce the other phenomena associated with life.
4. Growth: Maintenance of a higher rate of synthesis than catabolism. A growing organism increases in size in all of its parts, rather than simply accumulating matter. The particular species begins to multiply and expand as the evolution continues to flourish.
5. Adaptation: The ability to change over a period of time in response to the environment. This ability is fundamental to the process of evolution and is determined by the organism's heredity as well as the composition of metabolized substances, and external factors present.
6. Response to stimuli: A response can take many forms, from the contraction of a unicellular organism to external chemicals, to complex reactions involving all the senses of higher animals. A response is often expressed by motion, for example, the leaves of a plant turning toward the sun (Phototropism and chemotaxis.
7. Reproduction: The ability to produce new organisms. Reproduction can be the division of one cell to form two new cells. Usually the term is applied to the production of a new individual (either asexually, from a single parent organism, or sexually, from at least two differing parent organisms), although strictly speaking it also describes the production of new cells in the process of growth.

 

[rattler]

aint touching the abortion issue other than except that it takes 2 ppl to make a baby so i believe the father of the unborn baby has a say......i DO NOT like late term or in particular partial birth abortions and think they should be outlawed unless the physical health of the mother is in question....on abortions in the first trimester or so i dont have as much issue with them though any gal i got pregnant even on accident i would do everything in my power to prevent an abortion from happening, if the mother doesnt want the kid i will take 100% responsibility for the child and the mother never has to hear from me or the kid if thats what she wants.....however i aint going to go out of my way to stop some who wants to have an abortion that i dont know or dont know their circumstances.....

as far as my views on socialized health care.....i am FOR helping out ppl that attempt to help themselves........however i aint for giving anymore welfare hand outs to the leeches that are perfectly healthy and perfectly capable of holding down a job but think that flipping burgers at McDonalds is benieth them......revamp the current welfare program and i am willing to take a look at partial socialized health care for those that bust their arse and try......however i aint interested in helping out the bottom feeders with my money....if the choice is the current system plus socialized health care or the current system with out it ill choose no "free" health care......

 

[mabudon]

Health Care in both our countries would be relatively cheap if the pharmaceutical companies got raked over the colas like they so richly deserve.

Having so many patented chemicals in the system makes the price overall swell to ridiculous proportions.

Some kind of enforced philanthropy should be adopted in both the US and Canada- our healthcare system would cost a fraction of what it does were that to happen

 

[herenorthere]

Jim, the ethics of abortion, pro & con, are hopelessly murky. That's why there's so much disagreement and also why people can agree/disagree for completely different reasons. My opinion is that it is immoral to fight over abortion while being unwilling to do something about the thousands of children who die every day because the economic system we've imposed on the world doesn't offer solutions for simple drinking water/sanitation problems.

As for raking the pharmaceutical companies over colas, Mabudon, are those diet or regular colas? I'd hate to see the companies get any fatter.

 

[mabudon]

so I nail "pharmaceutical" and fail on "coals", sometimes a guy just can't win

I would prefer some kind of extra-strength colas tho, they got plenty of drugs to treat the jitters

 

[Indiana Gardener]

My opinion is that it is immoral to fight over abortion while being unwilling to do something about the thousands of children who die every day because the economic system we've imposed on the world doesn't offer solutions for simple drinking water/sanitation problems.

That's why I regularly give to global outreaches. Not some of the ministries that get on tv and beg for your $, but real independently checked organizations.

One of my problems with abortions, is knowing that there are willing families out there who do care and do adopt.

My aunt and uncle adopted a little girl many yrs ago. She is now all grown and out away from home. It took a very long time for a child to come there way after being put on the list. Soon after receiving their baby girl, they applied for another child so that my cousin wouldn't be an only sibling. The adoption agency basically told them in so many words that the list had grown incredibly long and the number of approved families far outnumbered the children available.

They waited for years until my cousin was almost grown before another child became available to them so far down the list that they felt they were past their prime and what age they felt they could give quality care to and keep up with a youngster. So they never got a second child.

So when someone says there are more children than what people are willing to adopt, I just don't see it (here in the US at least). I know how difficult it was for my aunt and uncle and saw how heartbreaking it is to want a child; heartbreaking to the point of almost breaking down when anyone else in the family announced a pregnancy, and then to be told there aren't any available because the list of qualified parents is longer than the list of children.

To go back and forth between the ideology that it's tissue, no it's a baby, no it's tissue... does not change anything. Your opinion does not change the molecular makeup of that young life one bit. To put one's own life ahead of another in that instance is selfish and repulsive. I do not know one parent who would put their life before their child's.

 

[rattler]

Health Care in both our countries would be relatively cheap if the pharmaceutical companies got raked over the colas like they so richly deserve.

not really.....especially given we are mostly talking bout surgeries that are what bankrupt families not meds other than the elderly.........if it werent for Uncle Sam picking up the tab his herniated disk surgery he had on Friday would likely be close to $20,000 when all is said and done for an hour and a half under the knife and almost none of that is meds......

besides if there was no money to be made in pharmaceuticals there wouldnt be tons of research being done......there is thousands of lab hours and testing behind each drug, that costs money........

 

[swords]

Of all that I said about the post only the last minute Abortion quip get's noticed! Oh well...

I believe it is solely the decision of a woman to decide to endure or terminate her pregnancy. As it is her body and she is the only one of the two beings burdened with it. You can run off and make lots of swimmers to impregnate as many women as you desire but they are stuck with your "seed" if they have no allowable medical recourse. If you're afraid your wife would have an abortion just to spite you, perhaps your marriage isn't all that secure and you definitely shouldn't be bringing kids into that situation. Having kids never fixes a bad relationship. The day after pill is just as ":wicked" as abortion to the pro-life / pro-war crowd - I've never been able to reconcile this strange loop.... As far as when life begins, I believe that it is when the child is born into conscious existence to experience the world (outside the womb). Adoption VS abortion is not an either or situation, simply because a woman has the freedom to choose doesn't mean Abortions are enforced, or even encouraged. This is the illogical extreme the pro-life crowd wants to make the option of choice. It's the same ridiculous logic as with Gay Marriage, "If Gays are allowed to get married then eventually straight men will be forced to marry another man!"

Botanica, in either North or South Dakota they are working on a bill that would indeed give rapists partial parental rights, including visitation. It's attached to an anti-abortion bill, of course!

Rattler, I don't believe McCain will be able to pull any of his "maverick" moves out of his trick top hat either. And what little he does promise doesn't impress me at all. Simply more proclamations for the ruling class down to us the people. Most of what those two say anymore is simply whining about Obama. Since voters attempt to choose the one they feel is the lesser of two evils, or the one who holds ideas most similar to their own, that is how one comes to a decision on who to vote for. No matter who they're voting for, these are the steps ALL people go through in making a decision - the same way you did. Whether you like it or not, when weighing the issues, they came to different conclusions than yourself. That doesn't make them evil or commies. It just means that they think differently than you. I'll say this, if Hillary was running I wouldn't vote for either of the two warmonger candidates, she's just a conservative in disguise. McCain doesn't hold any views I agree with, at least none that he's said publicly. and with Palin on the ticket, that makes him completely unattractive.

You know, people have always urged intellectuals and free thinkers to leave the country when they don't like what they say. I never understood how noticing and attempting to act on something someone considers an injustice is somehow an act of communism? Check out "Anti-Intellectualism in American Life" by Richard Hofstadter for a nostalgic look back at the wonderful world of McCarthyism up to the point of the civil rights movement. We can just take the word or name Intellectual or egghead (both names dreamed up by Republicans as slams) and transpose it with "elitist" and draw a number of parallels to the prevailing sentiments in small town America today to new ideas. But whatever, I say we're all staying, just to anger you people. lol!

(I just said "you people"! )

 

[rattler]

lets put my views bout ppl leaving the country if they really dont like how this country is run in general is two of my great grandfathers came to this country in the early 1900's cause they didnt like how things were done in Norway and Germany.....so they moved here, liked it, busted their arses to learn english and settle down to raise a family providing for them through their own sweat and blood out at the farms......so if you dont like the major principles this country is run on ive got no problem telling someone to leave, its what my family did.....

 

[rattler]

BTW if Obama wins, i sure hope you guys in the Northeast and Cali like your power outages.....

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=a2RHIj_6hvV0&refer=home

 

[Indiana Gardener]

>the pro-life / pro-war crowd - I've never been able to reconcile this strange loop....>

I've never been able to understand anyone who can't distinguish between an innocent life and an armed threat. Until a baby exits a womb wielding a knife or gun with deadly intent, it's an innocent life.


"Know guns, know peace, know safety. No guns, no peace, no safety"

rattler_mt, your quote is quite right. I meant to bring it up before now, but that is another thing that angers me about Obama. He voted to make gun laws more stringent every time a law passed by him. He'll make the laws so tough until we can't even defend ourselves against armed intruders, while he says it's ok to take innocent life. He makes no sense at all.

 

[swords]

There's nothing wrong with standing up and improving your country. We merely have differing views what improvements we wish to see take place. You've said yourself "I don't like how things are run". So why don't YOU leave instead of trying to change it?
(I'm being sarcastic here I'm not actually looking for a Daffy Duck VS Bugs Bunny "Duck" and "Rabbit" season sign type back and forth continuance on this bit of utter political silliness with you.... you leave.. no, you leave...makes us sound like 3rd graders)

It doesn't make someone unpatriotic because they have differing ideas than you, that's an ignorant assumption. How do you imagine anything has gotten fixed in this country over the 200 years or so? By a variety of ideas being discussed and eventually implemented. No divine providence handed down our country's laws, debates took place and for good or ill we have what we call our constitution, which guarantees me the freedom to say the heretical things I'm espousing. I know it's hard for people to accept the views of others without feeling offended, after all we've all got our whole universe mapped out and ideas which run contrary can be hard to accept.But in reality we cut ourselves off from the world at large when we pursue this line of thought. It's called Neophobia, which is the fear of "new", some would call this being "traditional" but it's actually a self-imposed form of mental enslavement. Neophillia on the other hand is someone who seeks out new ideas and experience and this open and optimistic mindset actually gives you more freedom. I don't get offended when people have different views, I like to try and see why they believe the way they do. That doesn't mean I will ever agree with it but I feel that I'm all the richer for taking the time to attempt to understand their position.

 

[rattler]

truth be told swords what scares the hell out of me with Obama being president is that it looks like the Dems could have a super majority in the house and senate......what scares me about that is im afraid ALOT of rubber stamping of policies and alot of crap getting passed with minimal debate.........i see it in all other forms of government i sure in the hell dont want it to happen here........

and Swords, as to me leaving there is only one other country in the entire world i would even entertain moving to and their immigration policies are an absolute beotch to get through even for a law abiding citizen such as myself with a clean record and a skill set :grin:

 

[swords]

They may have a majority but remember not all people think alike no matter what party they belong to. I don't like Al Gore because of his fundamentalist christian constitution snubbing wife Tipper (with her Washington Wives Committee and the PMRC http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PMRC ) and they call themselves progressive Democrats. Look at the non-voters on the bailout there was plenty of nays on both republican and democrat sides until they all got their additional $160B in cash and prizes over the course of 3 votes or so wasn't it? Those additions weren't added by only one side and then approved by both sides, both sides had themselves a rib dinner!

I'm very curious, what country would you live in other than the US and why?

 

[rattler]

New Zealand.........cause of the hunting tradition there that is still highly thought of through the majority of the country and is heavily protected by its citizens....talked to a couple Aussies that immigrated to the US and became citizens after the gun laws and such went in the toilet in the 90's and they said it was darn near impossible to immigrate to New Zealand and become a citizen as they have some of the strictest immigration laws in the world so they moved to the US and are now geting very worried we will take the same route as Australia.....

 

[Finch]

Botanica, in either North or South Dakota they are working on a bill that would indeed give rapists partial parental rights, including visitation. It's attached to an anti-abortion bill, of course!

South Dakota. Of course its SD. Whenever you hear stuff like the politicians not caring about teacher wages (we have the lowest in the US, below the territories too) or education, think SD. When you hear about anything actually moving to restrict all abortions, think SD.

Voters rejected the complete [illegal] ban on all abortions last time so they are going to try again... but this time rapist's victims would not be forced to not have an abortion... so I am not so completely and utterly opposed to it... but there is way too much crazy stuff still.

rattler_mt says New Zealand... thats odd... because I was going to say that. NZ has some of the best conservation laws and programs in the world. Look at everything they are doing to protect their native flora and fauna, it puts America to shame... amazing... and the country is absolutely beautiful...

 

[swords]

A couple sculptors on the Statue Forum had moved there, not permanent moves mind you, but for six months or so to work on Kong and some other film (Narnia maybe?) which were done by Weta Studios in NZ. Perhaps you need to already have a contract for employment lined up?

 

[Indiana Gardener]

New Zealand, now there's a nice country! With a great kite designer too!

Peter Lynn.

http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v70/Indiana_Gardener/kites/