Blatantantly political discussion, but...

[rattler]

yep but you do realize Finch its the hunters that open up their wallets the widest when it comes to protecting land...

for the record i am a LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONG ways from even considering skipping the country hell ill work on getting Montana succeeded from the union before ill skip the country.......

 

[Outsiders71]

Ok, here is something I want to address... I've been thinking about this a lot lately, and I've sort of been able to put my thoughts in order.

First of all, calling Obama's plan socialism is a straw man. No, it's not. It does share some of the philosophies, but certainly not all of them... That's like saying because I have a nose, and a dog has a nose, that I'm a dog. Phooey.

I think people such as yourself throw around the term straw man so much that it's lost its meaning. Wealth redistribution based on income is a tenet of socialism.

About the "redistribution of wealth" thing:
Yes, it IS unfair to tax people more because they make more. No one can deny that.
However, much of life is unfair - suck it up.

Suck it up? That's like saying because Michael Phelps is too good at swimming, he should have 50lb swimming weights strapped to each of his legs and arms during competitions so the weak can compete better.

How about those on the bottom suck it up, make some more responsible choices in life and live by their means? If that isn't good enough for them, they need to work harder or try an alternative strategy such as going to college and earning a degree to gain the lifestyle they want. NOBODY is ENTITLED to anything. You earn your own here in America.

Why do I say this?

I find most people who make the argument that it's unfair are making an emotional decision based on how they think the world should be, rather than how it IS. The simple fact is that we, as a society, have people that NEED the assistance. Now, I will be the first to admit that the current way we administer this assistance needs is terrible, but we do need it.
If those who make a lot of money don't pay a little extra, those who need it won't get it from the goverment. Like it or not, this destabalizes the country, and makes it more difficult to hold onto the money you do make. Be it from an economic bust, or from just plain burglary.
The simple fact is that sub-par people exist. Yes, they're parasites...and yes they SHOULD NOT need what that need, but they do. If we address that need, it will come back and bite us.

And I hate that, but there it is.

Whatever happened to the tenet of the survival of the fitest? .

The problem is we need a better way of sifting from those who are in true dire, temporary, need from those who just are plain lazy. The fact is as a college student, only working 20hrs a week, there are people who are getting paid more by the government to do nothing.

Now, what would get me to vote for McCain? First, GET RID OF PALIN. That lady is a menace. I could go ON AND ON about her.

McCain himself I have less of an issue with....I think his foreign policy should be revamped, but it's not horrible - certainly better than Bush's. But I do think that Obama's will be better for our international image. I know it galls most Americans to think this is important, but it is.

Lastly, Dems are historically more environmentally friendly.....I'd like to see a more clean-energy driven plan from McCain (Obama, too, for that matter). One that kicks out big oil, and puts research into wind power, etc.

But seriously, get that woman off your ballot, and or you have NO shot of getting my vote....and for the record, that has NOTHING to do with her being a woman.

Please do go on about Palin, because the only thing you have attacked about her is her gender.

 

[Finch]

yep but you do realize Finch its the hunters that open up their wallets the widest when it comes to protecting land...

Yes. Yes, I was. I know all about DU's work in my area.

for the record i am a LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONG ways from even considering skipping the country hell ill work on getting Montana succeeded from the union before ill skip the country.......

Since you are quite fond of the idea of succession, here is a heads-up. The UN and other intergovernmental organizations have some basic requirements for countries seeking to be recognized as independent, and one of them is that there usually has to be distinct cultural difference and way of life. Kosovo meets these stipulations... Montana really doesn't have a vast ethnic or cultural gap with its neighbors... ya can cite the laws and values there and all but in the end it doesn't add up to enough to convince anyone else that Montanans need their own country. You would need a better argument than "we hate the way you run things" and "you elected a democrat" to convince outsiders. Although apparently Russia doesn't care all that much if you can bear to support Moscow.... and they have tanks! Just ask Georgia the country.

 

[rattler]

at the moment i am not for Montana succeeding.......depends on what happens in the future yet.....as far as the UN.....dont give a flying fu......er.....ahhhh.....i really dont care what they think.....

 

[Finch]

... unfortunate, then, that it is a big deal to be legitimately recognized as independent. Taiwan has to bribe tiny ocean countries to be recognized by them as independent...

 

[Botanicadenta]

aint touching the abortion issue other than except that it takes 2 ppl to make a baby so i believe the father of the unborn baby has a say......i DO NOT like late term or in particular partial birth abortions and think they should be outlawed unless the physical health of the mother is in question....on abortions in the first trimester or so i dont have as much issue with them though any gal i got pregnant even on accident i would do everything in my power to prevent an abortion from happening, if the mother doesnt want the kid i will take 100% responsibility for the child and the mother never has to hear from me or the kid if thats what she wants.....however i aint going to go out of my way to stop some who wants to have an abortion that i dont know or dont know their circumstances.....

as far as my views on socialized health care.....i am FOR helping out ppl that attempt to help themselves........however i aint for giving anymore welfare hand outs to the leeches that are perfectly healthy and perfectly capable of holding down a job but think that flipping burgers at McDonalds is benieth them......revamp the current welfare program and i am willing to take a look at partial socialized health care for those that bust their arse and try......however i aint interested in helping out the bottom feeders with my money....if the choice is the current system plus socialized health care or the current system with out it ill choose no "free" health care......

I'm ecstatic to announce that I agree entirely with this post. Really!

The thought of any abortion absolutely terrifies me, and rather than even give it a chance to happen I am extremely careful with my relationships to avoid 'accidents'. When McCain said "Pro-abortion" at the last debate, it's seriously infuriating because there is no one in the world who is pro-abortion. No one spends their afternoon with a loved one debating between a night at the movies or getting a coat hanger poked about their organs, much less would you ever hear of a woman trying to get pregnant just so she could see what it's like to kill a fetus. it doesn't happen out of leisure, it happens out of necessity.

And I'm extremely anti-welfare. I grew up around a lot of people who made a living popping out new kids every year and a half, and it's irritating to see such irresponsibility for an attempt to get a free ride. I believe socialized medicine can and will work as long as it's monitored similar to Social Security credits are now. Anything to avoid the extremely ineffectual health care systems I've seen at every place I've worked that wasn't a CPS job. I mean, seriously, we're the only industrialized nation that doesn't feel obligated to care for its citizens as a God-given right. It just baffles the hell out of me.

Me and the GF are still up in the air as to where we'd high-tail it off to if McCain wins and 'The Rove' starts rearing his head in republican decisions. NZ seems neat, it's just terribly small and in the middle of nowhere. We thought about Canada, except it's too close and manipulable by the US and kinda daffy. Germany's up there on the list ever since they've started their aggressive green campaign and for culture's sake. Got a lot of German in me, better start mein beer trainin.

 

[herenorthere]

I, for one, am happy to see a conservative raise the idea of leaving the country because of the direction it might be turning. The US is better with Rattler than without him, but for too long it's only been lefties who've had to think about the prospect of leaving. So thanks for giving me reason to hope that things are taking a turn for the better. I really don't believe it, but I like to have hope.

 

[Finch]

Well, notice the wording. People who claim abortion is a right do not call themselves pro-abortion... They call themselves prochoice. Just like people against abortion do not say they are against choice. They are prolife. So are abortion supporters pro-death and people against abortion anti-choice? Depends on who you ask but... not really. They do not consider themselves as such anyways.

Me and the GF are still up in the air as to where we'd high-tail it off to if McCain wins and 'The Rove' starts rearing his head in republican decisions.

I, for one, am happy to see a conservative raise the idea of leaving the country because of the direction it might be turning. The US is better with Rattler than without him, but for too long it's only been lefties who've had to think about the prospect of leaving. So thanks for giving me reason to hope that things are taking a turn for the better. I really don't believe it, but I like to have hope.

I have a problem with this statement and previous ones by others like this. This is a democracy, and sometimes your side wins and sometimes it doesn't. If anyone seriously considers packing up and moving whenever the other side wins at the polls perhaps democracy isnt for you.

Just a pet peeve of mine.

 

[herenorthere]

I've never met anyone who actually left or even seriously considered it, not since they were evading the draft, anyway. It's just nice change to see someone on the other side of the spectrum thinking the country might be swinging in a different direction.

As the abortion terminology shows, the powers-that-be recognize that controlling the language is ~90% of the battle.

 

[Outsiders71]

I've never met anyone who actually left or even seriously considered it, not since they were evading the draft, anyway. It's just nice change to see someone on the other side of the spectrum thinking the country might be swinging in a different direction.

I think what our side fears the most is what direction this country might be swinging in if Obama wins the election. I think the word change isn't proper or strong enough...

Would I move if Obama wins? No. I may however volunteer more of my personal hours to make sure in 4 years something changes for real.

As the abortion terminology shows, the powers-that-be recognize that controlling the language is ~90% of the battle.

That's exactly why pro-abortion/choice label the unborn life (baby) as nothing but a cluster of cells, tissue or simply as a fetus. They pray to Darwin and Science yet can't figure out that life starts when the sperm units with an egg. So by terminology they can rationalize and go through with abortion.

 

[rattler]

I have a problem with this statement and previous ones by others like this. This is a democracy, and sometimes your side wins and sometimes it doesn't. If anyone seriously considers packing up and moving whenever the other side wins at the polls perhaps democracy isnt for you.

Just a pet peeve of mine.

sorry if i didnt make myself clear.....i aint going to high tail it just cause someone i didnt like got the presidency......there are ALOT more conditions that would have to be met in order for me to high tail it to a different country......for it to get bad enough for me to pack up and leave this country i would have to feel i had exhausted all other options, one of those options, towards the end of the list, would for me and similarly minded ppl to attempt a succession from the US......but we are likely a long ways from that if ever comes in my life time(though i believe its inevitable at some point).....

dang man you got to remember i got some long cold winters with not much to do but sit and think bout stuff .....................have i actually thought about what i would do if i was fed up with the US government? sure.....have i actually taken any step other than minor studying up on it.......no......

 

[herenorthere]

The word-smithing is done by both sides, although saying "both" is incorrect because there really are thousands of sides to this issue. I don't know where I would draw the line on the beginning of life. Mostly because it's a vast gray area and becomes kind of like a Rorschach test. People see different things, depending on their personality, mental state, culture, personal ethics, etc. I never know what to think of people who can see it as a yes/no question.

And people, it's secession, not succession. The South seceded and it's war didn't succeed.

 

[rattler]

yes SIR! sorry but i dont run my posts through our proofreader........ tried that once but she got pissed at me calling her at midnight

actually i have an issue, i tend to read what's supposed to be there and not whats actually there which is why i only did the proofreading role at the paper for half a day that and i cant spell for crap......drives me nuts that i can usually recognize a word as being spelled wrong but cant for the life of me figure out how its supposed to be spelled.......which is why i run all my stories for the paper through a proofreader and an editor.........

 

[swords]

i tend to read what's supposed to be there and not whats actually there

This is a clear case of how we all put our own personal spin on the "truth" and "our world", and better than any way I could have explained it. You're not the only one who reads what's "supposed to be there", we all do it, especially in first passes/initial perceptions. A great example of how we view things differently and if what we're seeing doesn't fit our model of the universe we'll often change it just enough that it does.

Here's a fun perception experiment, get some friends together (at least one other) and all of you read the same article on some topic, preferably one which is a strong issue for you and them-all the better if you do not all agree on the issue 100%. Everybody read the article once at the same time and then discuss it and find out how many discrepancies come up about what you all believe you read. No going back to the article during the discussion, you must go only on your initial perceptions. After the discussion, everybody go back and reread the article.

 

[xvart]

As to what would make me vote for McCain:

• Go back in time and pick another VP;
• More comprehensibly and coherently convey his plans for the next four years; and,
• More comprehensibly and coherently convey how he, as a "maverick," is going to change the broken government.

And while I don't necessarily think the last bullet is the most important, I am pretty passionate about it. There have been presidential candidates who say government can work, and when elected, they prove it. Then there are presidents who say government doesn't work, and when they get elected, they prove that, too.

I may however volunteer more of my personal hours to make sure in 4 years something changes for real.

Maybe we should all volunteer more personal hours to making sure each year changes for real.

xvart.

 

[Botanicadenta]

At least it feels like this thread is a little more amicable. You know, before I decided to actually try and catch up on politics, I wasn't going to vote anyway. Then I kinda got swept up in the Obama charisma machine and started being quite gung-ho. Natually, over time, I drifted back down to Earth and reaccepted the fact that all government is probably gonna suck one way or another, but the more I learn, the more I can at least solidly point my fingers that things.

As I try to state before being swept up in individual politics, I'm not voting for Obama per se, I'm voting for the democratic party. My reasoning for this is simply because my loathing for the Republican party was Bush, then as I learned more about what was going on, names like Carl Rove came up and started painting a picture, then Lee Attwater(sp?)... then what was accomplished during Reagan and Bush 41. It doesn't take much to see what's going on. Commend them for good political tactic all you want, but the game changed in the Rep.'s favor as soon as they adopted... the cowboy....

Bush didn't even own a house in Texas until it was time to run for president! I mean, the whole thing stinks. It'd be okay if they actually managed to try and form their political theatre and manipulation of the issues and trying to win people by tempting people with excellent plans and ideas while expanding on what they pleased when no one was looking (A reason why I frown on Dems as well, mind you). But it's not! It's about this shallow image fixation and playing on American idolization. The whole thing has blindsighted voters for decades now and it's kinda irritated.

Whoever gets voted in isn't going to make me happy until we abolish the idea of 'joe-sixpack' and 'guy i'd like to have a beer with' from politics forever. We're people, my name is not Joe, plumber or otherwise, And I am not identified by a six-pack, abs or otherwise.

Addendum: I would have voted for Ron Paul if he had made it. He seemed like a cool guy for a Rep.

 

[swords]

If I were going to vote completely on my own conscience I would vote for Bob Barr (libertarian) if I had any inkling he'd actually get in. At this point though, I merely want to be sure and attempt to keep Palin's evangelism out and of course see how many of these promises Obi can deliver. Any number of which I'd be happy to see occur and consider at least some progress. if you thought the hammer came down on medical and bio-research with Bush 2.0 wait'll we have Palin 1.0!

 

[Outsiders71]

If I were going to vote completely on my own conscience I would vote for Bob Barr (libertarian) if I had any inkling he'd actually get in. At this point though, I merely want to be sure and attempt to keep Palin's evangelism out and of course see how many of these promises Obi can deliver. Any number of which I'd be happy to see occur and consider at least some progress. if you thought the hammer came down on medical and bio-research with Bush 2.0 wait'll we have Palin 1.0!

So because Palin is a Christian and isn't willing to hide her beliefs she should stay out of office? Just goes to prove the point that all the hatred against Palin is most likely based on her faith.

What medical/biological research will Palin bring the hammer down? (Note: If you say embryonic stem cells, you're research is OUTDATED).

 

[Indiana Gardener]

So because Palin is a Christian and isn't willing to hide her beliefs she should stay out of office? Just goes to prove the point that all the hatred against Palin is most likely based on her faith.

I thought it was coming down to that. Well, that and her gender.

Outsiders71, if you haven't discovered it by now, it's true. ;-)
Matthew 10:22

I've also found that generally the "tolerant" are the least tolerant.

 

[jimscott]

I believe it is solely the decision of a woman to decide to endure or terminate her pregnancy. As it is her body and she is the only one of the two beings burdened with it.

But it aint just her body that is affected. There's another body that is being terminated, albeit a whole lot smaller. It's like stepping on a bug on the ground. It's small, insignificant, and doesn't scream back. Sometimes there's a little crunching underneath, but hey, it's too small to consider important.

And adoption is always an option.

BTW, while I'm expressing opinions, I thought I'd mention that it makes no difference to me or a baby if the father happens to be a rapist. But if it were a choice between the life of my wife and that of the baby, in that medically rare happenstance, there's no contest. My wife wins without batting an eyelash.