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Thread: Words not to be forgotten

  1. #9
    swords's Avatar
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    As far as I'm concerned, it's wonderful for persons to believe in any religion they desire, so long as no specific belief becomes enforced by a government mandate - which then becomes nothing but a Theocracy. Which is the crux of many politically active religious groups in my area. And this seems to me no better than a country which bans all personal religion and imprisons or executes it's citizens based upon their beliefs or non-beliefs. Which is why I happily agree with the notion that we have the freedom of religion. I interpret that as to the explanation why the term "God" (a catch all simply indicating higher entity) is used instead of Jesus, Allah, Cthulhu or any other specific name on such official documents, paper currency, etc.

    FYI, I'm not a "god off the money" guy, that sort of thing doesn't bother me, I only pay attention to the digits anyway!

  2. #10
    Let's positive thinking! seedjar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scottychaos View Post
    “ The general principles upon which the Fathers achieved independence were the general principals of Christianity… I will avow that I believed and now believe that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God.”
    -John Adams
    I think the key phrase here is general principles of Christianity. Judeo-Christian faiths share many virtuous principles with other important religions. Don't steal; don't kill; be kind to your neighbors and respectful of your family. You don't need faith in God to understand why those ideas are important (although it does help for some people.) Also, even if independence came about through principles shared with Christianity, that doesn't imply that the founding fathers took them from Christianity. (There's little doubt that Christianity influenced their thought, but Christianity is not a necessary condition to understand the ideas layed out in the Declaration of Independence.)

    Quote Originally Posted by scottychaos View Post
    “[July 4th] ought to be commemorated as the day of deliverance by solemn acts of devotion to God Almighty.”
    –John Adams in a letter written to Abigail on the day the Declaration was approved by Congress
    Which God? The God of Israel? Because that's the God that Christians worship, by a strict interpretation of the Bible. I think John is totally right here, but you could read this in terms of any number of religions and the point would be just as valid.

    Quote Originally Posted by scottychaos View Post
    "I have examined all religions, as well as my narrow sphere, my straightened means, and my busy life, would allow; and the result is that the Bible is the best Book in the world. It contains more philosophy than all the libraries I have seen."
    John Adams - December 25, 1813 letter to Thomas Jefferson
    I still don't see how this refutes swords' quote. Was that the point? John Adams was digging on the Bible - and why not? It's an important book distilled from countless lessons and bits of wisdom spanning dozens of generations of some of the earliest known civilizations. But as John himself admits, he hasn't read every book. I think it's a hallmark of a paragon Christian when they understand that Christianity isn't the only thing right with the world.
    ~Joe
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    Livin' like a bug ain't easy / Livin' like a bug ain't easy... o//~

  3. #11
    Whats it to ya? Finch's Avatar
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    Everyone wants the world to be a better place- they just disagree on what that constitutes and how to go about it. Liberals and conservatives both want to make this world, this country a better place. They just can’t agree on how.
    that makes no logic

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    Scotty,

    The personal belief of John Adams and the principals that were used to found this country are different. I will not argue that John Adams didn't believe in God, many people believed in go at that time. The Key difference between what Swords quoted and what you put up is that Swords quoted from an official legal government document. You are quoting from personal communications. One is the stance of a nation the other represents a persons thoughts and feelings.
    "We're terrible animals. I think that the Earth's immune system is trying to get rid of us, as well it should." - Kurt Vonnegut

  5. #13
    scottychaos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ktulu View Post
    Scotty,

    The personal belief of John Adams and the principals that were used to found this country are different. I will not argue that John Adams didn't believe in God, many people believed in go at that time. The Key difference between what Swords quoted and what you put up is that Swords quoted from an official legal government document. You are quoting from personal communications. One is the stance of a nation the other represents a persons thoughts and feelings.
    yes..but..you also cant take one quote out of context and attempt to use it as proof that America was NOT founded on "Christian principles"..

    (for the record, Im a HUGE fan of seperation of church and state! religion has NO place in government!! Christians need to keep their beliefs away from laws that effect everyone.)

    but thats a totally different problem than the basic question about how much Christianity did, or didnt, influence the founding of our country..

    IMO, saying Christianity had NO influence is ridiculous..our entire culture is based on Christianity..and always has been...thats obvious.

    But that doesnt mean Christians get to use their religious book to influence laws..

    IMO, Christians (and I am one) should be VERY careful about using their book to bully the whole country around...the only reason they have been able to get away with it for so long is because they have always been the majority...but what happens if they arent the majority anymore??

    A fictional "what-if" future scenereo:

    Lets say, just for the sake of arguement, that someday Muslims become the majority in the USA..they pass a law stating all Women in America must be covered head to toe while out in public..naturally, people object!

    "well too bad..We are the majority now..when Christians were the majority thay had no problem with using their holy book to pass laws everyone had to follow, even if everyone wasnt Christian...now that we are the majority, we will pass laws based on our Holy book that everyone has to follow, even if everyone isnt Muslim"..

    dont think it couldnt happen!
    Christians have already set the precident..

    Christians would be very smart to keep their beliefs out of government..
    it could easily backfire someday..

    Chrsitan oppresion is alive and well in many parts of the world..
    the only reason it isnt alive and well in the USA is because Christians have been running the show..but that can always change..

    Take a look at the nations of the world where the dominant RELIGION is the actual government..
    they generally arent nice places to live..
    Christianity didnt do a good job as government either..
    Thats why America was founded! to escape "religion as government"!

    so yeah..I totally agree that America is not "A Christian Nation"..and shouldnt be..
    there is no official religion to the USA..and shouldnt be...ever.

    but thats not the same thing, at all, as saying "Christianity was a dominant influence on the founding of our nation, and influenced many of its original laws and ideals"..

    thats totally true..and its not really a bad thing..

    So, IMO, both sides of this particular debate are correct..

    Christians are correct in saying "the USA was founded on Christian principles"..
    thats very true..

    Others are correct in saying "America is not a Christian nation, never has been, and the founding fathers didnt WANT it to be a Chrsitian nation"..
    thats also totally true..

    the problem lies in what people, on both sides, try to DO with those basic facts..

    Scot

  6. #14
    rattler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Finch View Post
    Everyone wants the world to be a better place- they just disagree on what that constitutes and how to go about it. Liberals and conservatives both want to make this world, this country a better place. They just canít agree on how.
    the fact of the matter is though we CANNOT get back to teh founders ideals through either McCain or Obama.....think its rather funny that some of those that say they would like to get back to those ideals are die hard supporters of Obama as his policies are at opposite poles from the founders.......even McCain is somewhere near the equator away from the founders......the only candidate truly interested in getting back to what the founders wanted got less than 10% of the vote in the primaries and im pretty sure im the only one or one of only a couple on this forum that voted for him........
    cervid serial killer
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    I think it's a hallmark of a paragon Christian when they understand that Christianity isn't the only thing right with the world.
    I really like this quote! Spot on, that.

    And Scotty, WOW! That was brilliant!

    Naturally Christian thought influenced the formation of our government. Even to the point where it was decided NOT to allow Christianity to make law (that is an influence).

    But also because, since the founding fathers came from a Christian culture, even if any of them had renouced it, their thought processes and idea of right and wrong would contain at least some of Christian thought.

    Hey, I'm an Atheist, for pete's sake, but I still agree with many of the ideas of Christianity (and may of them are universal, too). I don't justify them in the same way (I use my version of logic, rather than "because God says so.")

    My mother is Christian, and did teach me my first moral lessons....I like to think I've grown beyond that early influence, but at the same time a retain much of those lessons because they just make sense.
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    Outsiders71's Avatar
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    Scot, good job dispelling one of the BIGGEST lies and attempts to rewrite history. To those who believe this country wasn't founded on Christian-Judeo values, have you ever read the Bible? Probably not...and I mean outside of searching for verses that you would use out of context.

    Look around the world. Why is it that this country has risen to the top in the world? Why is it that we have the greatest freedoms and opportunities in the world? I'd argue it is because of the values we based this country on. If this country had based it's values on anything else, I believe that America would not be what it is today.

    I think it's a hallmark of a paragon Christian when they understand that Christianity isn't the only thing right with the world.
    How about I challenge you to list the things that are right with the world, outside of the Christian faith, which believes God has redeemed us and gave us a new way of life? What is so fundamentally GOOD about this world?

    Isn't Obama running on a platform that everything here in America is broken and BAD, which the majority of you subscribe to?
    James 1:17

    "Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows."

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