What's new
TerraForums Venus Flytrap, Nepenthes, Drosera and more talk

Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

Words not to be forgotten

  • #21
If you cannot see any good that exists beyond your own beleifs then no example would suffice.

That would be like saying I shouldn't talk about Christianity on this board because of the beliefs the majority of people here share.

I'm not asking Joe to define my beliefs, I'm asking him to list what he believes is "good" outside of Christianity since he sees a lot of "good" in this world. My beliefs would not matter in Joe's response because I don't believe we share the same views.
 
  • #22
"pinto rage" is something good about the world
 
  • #23
How about I challenge you to list the things that are right with the world, outside of the Christian faith, which believes God has redeemed us and gave us a new way of life? What is so fundamentally GOOD about this world?

Isn't Obama running on a platform that everything here in America is broken and BAD, which the majority of you subscribe to?

I don't think Obama is saying everything is bad... maybe you should read the transcripts of some of his speeches. Or maybe I should reread them? I think Obama's stance is more that the functioning of the government, and the wealthy interests that hold disproportionate control over it, is making life hard for the majority of us. But that's neither here nor there.
As for good things in the world, did you miss the part in Genesis when God goes on and on about how good creation is? How about:
- Food
- Water
- The sun
- The atmosphere
- The troposphere
- Gravity
- The periodic table of elements
- Natural beauty
- Survival instincts
- Free will
- Compassion
- Understanding
- Communication
- Written knowledge
- Learning from our mistakes
- That you don't need to be Christian to share their non-secular values (such as kindness, generosity, and stewardship)
- We're not all in Hell right now - as the Bible suggests, things could be much, much worse
Notice that several of those things are prerequisites of Christian tradition and values? No writing -> no Bible -> no Christian teachings -> no Christian church. If you really don't believe there's anything good outside of Christianity, why do you use a computer? Computers aren't Christian. Seriously, I feel like you're just trying to be inflammatory now. I suggest you spend more time in church, because you seem to have missed a few of the more important parts.

it's good for everybody, except for the people you take the money from..
which is anyone with a job.

By that line of reasoning, we shouldn't have a nation at all. Are you saying you'd rather be personally responsible for obtaining clean water, power, and defending your home? You want to farm your own food, or do your own testing on things you buy to make sure they aren't sick? Do you have any idea how exorbitantly expensive it would be to provide those things for yourself? Far more than your taxes, I can assure you. I'm pretty sure you're not an anarchist... So isn't that statement a little too strong? Why do you think people invented governments and taxes?
Every government is socialist, to one degree or another. Even despotism relies on the contributions of the people to create a unified state (even if it isn't a happy one.) Also, supply and demand - the most economical solution to virtually every problem related to spending is to have the largest pool of stakeholders possible. Our money is worth more together than it is in tiny denominations. Doesn't anybody here shop at Costco? For that matter, look at the history of life on Earth - the reason we're all still here is cooperation and mutual interest. When we farm, we must kill the crops and livestock we need to eat. But every farmer knows that you won't have a harvest the next year unless you tend to the seeds and young of this year. If we just ate everything with no regard for anything but our immediate hunger, there would be nothing left to sustain us.
Now, I believe it's Samhain - and you're all bumming me out. I'm going to go enjoy the company of God's creation.
~Joe
 
  • #24
By that line of reasoning, we shouldn't have a nation at all. Are you saying you'd rather be personally responsible for obtaining clean water, power, and defending your home? You want to farm your own food, or do your own testing on things you buy to make sure they aren't sick? Do you have any idea how exorbitantly expensive it would be to provide those things for yourself? Far more than your taxes, I can assure you.

Along those lines, does the government pay for our clean water, our power, our food, farmers, etc.? I'm pretty sure I pick up the bill on all of those. Yes defending our home is a governmental function, but Obama wants to raise taxes in an attempt to be a modern day Robin Hood, not defend our nation. As a matter of fact, he wants to do the exact opposite. If you want to donate your money to the poor/government, then by all means, I'm sure the IRS or bum on the street will gladly accept a donation at any time, or you might as well just buy the bum a bottle of whiskey, because thats what hes going to use his governmental money on anyways. Either that or a nice new Cadillac. I don't need the government to tell me how to spend my money, thats for sure. I'd rather be buying new plants!


BTW, I did not mean to hijack this thread and turn it into a political debate.
 
  • #25
As for good things in the world, did you miss the part in Genesis when God goes on and on about how good creation is? How about:
- Food
- Water
- The sun
- The atmosphere
- The troposphere
- Gravity
- The periodic table of elements
- Natural beauty
- Survival instincts
- Free will
- Compassion
- Understanding
- Communication
- Written knowledge
- Learning from our mistakes
- That you don't need to be Christian to share their non-secular values (such as kindness, generosity, and stewardship)
- We're not all in Hell right now - as the Bible suggests, things could be much, much worse

If you read Genesis just a little further, you would have found out that those things were called "good" because God created them. I asked you to provide me a list of things that you felt were "good" outside of Christianity and God. Instead you come back rattling a list of things that I believe are created by God. Thanks for proving my point I guess. ???

Notice that several of those things are prerequisites of Christian tradition and values? No writing -> no Bible -> no Christian teachings -> no Christian church.

How is this separate from the good of God?

If you really don't believe there's anything good outside of Christianity, why do you use a computer? Computers aren't Christian.

Computers are nothing but tools. I use them the same as I use toilet paper, forks, knives or spoons. They are neutral items, if anything.

Seriously, I feel like you're just trying to be inflammatory now. I suggest you spend more time in church, because you seem to have missed a few of the more important parts.

It's inflammatory to ask you to support your comment? ??? I'm sorry to pick your brain and make you burn some brain cells.

I'm inflammatory, then you question my attendance in church? Hypocrisy at its best indeed. :crazy:

I'm not sure if you read this:
http://terraforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=115705

But xvart says that comments like that earn a 3 day temp ban.
 
  • #26
That would be like saying I shouldn't talk about Christianity on this board because of the beliefs the majority of people here share.
No. It means that if you truly believe that the only good comes out of Christianity, which is essentially what you were saying, then no amount of stuff I could provide to the contrary would really… ah… get through. the above respone proves it. I felt that you would dismiss any example I gave because you already say you know the answer. Thats what i was getting at. Everyone does that to a degree, for certain, but... I just felt that saying the only good in the world comes out of a given person's religion (not necessarily the same as god) is terribly ethnocentric.
 
  • #27
No. It means that if you truly believe that the only good comes out of Christianity, which is essentially what you were saying, then no amount of stuff I could provide to the contrary would really… ah… get through. the above respone proves it. I felt that you would dismiss any example I gave because you already say you know the answer. Thats what i was getting at.

Once again the question wasn't about my beliefs! You're allowed to have your own...you know? Do we have to agree? No. I asked a simple and honest question, since someone claimed that there's "good" in the world outside of Christianity. I asked what that was, in return I got a list of things that God said was "good" in Genesis, which doesn't answer the question that was presented. You're not making sense to me. How could I know what Joe or you believe is "good" in the world, outside of God? That's why I asked... because I don't. :scratch:
 
  • #28
It's the age old fallacy of the fundamental arguments. If an all powerful being created everything, then everything is good, even if it is not in relevant scripture to whatever belief system to which you subscribe. Nobody can argue with that, because it all goes down to what is an internal and fundamental belief.

The only other thing I'm going to say is that we, as a culture, still hold on to beliefs that such acts of "goodness" are so unique to one belief system or another, and this "goodness" would never have surfaced had it not been for a belief system to set us straight. Take for one second, in the example that is dominating this thread now, if Christianity had never existed. Is it so far fetched to think that society, in whatever sense that it may exist, would not believe that killing someone else is wrong? Is that such a unique situation that only because of christianity do we not go out slaying everyone in sight?

For the most part, I don't think that we would be alive today if all the cavemen, pre-christianity, killed one another, simply because they didn't have the guidance of a savior or scripture?

For the record, I am not implying that this way of thinking is unique to christianity by any means. I just used that as an example since it was already brought up in discussion.

And I guess the discussion ends there.

xvart.
 
  • #29
I will reopen this thread since there are several members who think it is still valid to continue discussion on it. In my opinion, though, threads shouldn't be locked after it gets out of hand. They should be locked before they get out of hand.

xvart.
 
  • #30
Once again the question wasn't about my beliefs! You're allowed to have your own...you know? Do we have to agree? No. I asked a simple and honest question, since someone claimed that there's "good" in the world outside of Christianity. I asked what that was, in return I got a list of things that God said was "good" in Genesis, which doesn't answer the question that was presented. You're not making sense to me. How could I know what Joe or you believe is "good" in the world, outside of God? That's why I asked... because I don't. :scratch:

The post below does not include the word "God":

I'm not asking Joe to define my beliefs, I'm asking him to list what he believes is "good" outside of Christianity since he sees a lot of "good" in this world. My beliefs would not matter in Joe's response because I don't believe we share the same views.

:)

~Joe
 
  • #32
I will reopen this thread since there are several members who think it is still valid to continue discussion on it. In my opinion, though, threads shouldn't be locked after it gets out of hand. They should be locked before they get out of hand.

xvart.


I back xvart on this comment. It is best to lock a thread before it gets out of hand. This thread has skated the line more than a few times. I politely advocate that all involved parties rein it in before they cross that line. If they choose to ignore this suggestion then they can face the consequences of their actions.
 
  • #33
WOW, talk about getting off topic here.....I thought I posted some quotes showing the beliefs this country was founded on.....I thought that people could think about those quotes and compare them to the ones that the 2 main candidates say......maybe I should make sure I am on the right thread......yep, I am......welp, all I really have to say about all this is the following:

Outsider......you asked to be shown what good is in the world outside of "christian beliefs"......to me that is an absolutely irrelevant question......EVERYTHING good in this world was here by the Creator long before christian beliefs came along.....I mean really, to say that no good came before Christ is simply ridiculous! And yes, by the way you worded your question that is exactly what you were implying, perhaps you meant to say biblical instead of christian......but if you look throughout history christian beliefs often times caused all sorts of evils.....and why is that do you think? Probably because the christian belief system is that you can sin (even though you shouldnt) and will be forgiven of it if you simply ask Jesus to forgive you......but yet the bible christians hold so true states VERY VERY clearly that NO WILLFUL SIN WILL BE FORGIVEN.......willful sin by the way is anything you KNOW is a sin and do anyways (like telling a "white lie", looking at someone or something with lust, etc.) The bible and Christian beliefs are two totally different things and are polar opposites.....christian beliefs are set up by doctrines of men (i.e. baptist, morman, catholic, etc) and their interpretation of the bible, not the bible itself but another mans own beliefs that they then indoctrinate into all they come across.

So, I ask you outsider, what good has come of these christian beliefs you speak of? The only good in this world comes from the Creator, not a doctrine of faith or beliefs....dont forget to look at the christian presidents this country has had and look at some of the evils they pulled/pull....

And what makes you think this country has risen to the top? We have schools that brainwash our children, doctors that kill their patients with deadly drugs (not to mention the over the counter junk that is equally as deadly), laws that are stripping our rights away, vaccinations that poison our youth as well as adults, and a society that thinks this is all just hunky dory and dont ask questions.....you think this is rising to the top.....no sir, we have not risen to anything but instead sunk to the level of willfully ignorant slaves.....working to pay taxes......owning property that you have to have permission to do anything on and that you have to continue to pay taxes on for the rest of your life......buying food with deadly preservatives, food colorings and artificial (fake and undigestible) vitamins and minerals that kill instead of nourish.....media that tells you nothing while making you think you know it all......television and music that is breeding a filthy generation full of hatred......I could go on and on but will stop with that......if this is the top I want to go back to the bottom!

Now dont go getting all out of control asking me how I would like to move to a different country that does not have this that or the other....personally, I am thankful for the breath of life that I have been blessed with and my position on this earth will not change that.....besides, I believe it is just a matter of time before this country goes sour.

Sorry to pull you out of the crowd outsider, it just seems to me that you are demanding an answer to a question that has no relevance or logic.....

Well, I have read this several times and dont believe that I have overstepped the lines with anything I have said.

Victoria
 
Last edited:
  • #34
Honestly I would like the topic to get back on topic. To give you a simple answer, I don't see Christianity as a religion or rule set but as a way of life that entails obviously that there is a God, Christ and Holy Spirit. I was simply asking a genuine question of the original poster who posted the provocative statement:

I think it's a hallmark of a paragon Christian when they understand that Christianity isn't the only thing right with the world.

I don't see the world as inheirently good outside of what God has and continues to do, including the hope and new life that Christ brings. I was only curious to hear another point of view, regardless if we agree or disagree, instead it has snowballed.

If you or anyone else wants to talk about this feel free to PM me, this is my last post publicly in this thread on this matter.
 
  • #35
For what it's worth, my own belief is that the major problem with Religion is that it allows people to externalize their problems and forgo holding themselves accountable for their actions and instead rely on God/Jesus/Allah/Zoroaster/etc. to forgive them. This operates on all levels, including international relations. Ultimately, the arrogance that universal forgiveness to those who believe allows people to be human for the sake of being human is dangerous.

I believe that before we go to God for forgiveness, we need to forgive ourselves, and anyone who feels that an action may result in a net negative response need to think twice about what they are doing before they decide whether or not their God can forgive them. This includes presidents and senators. We're all in this together, and we need to ultimately benefit one another before we follow the path of vindictive crusades against our fellow man.

Furthermore, as a nation, I believe we need to be hospitable to those we disagree with instead of excluding them because of an overarching belief, popular or otherwise. If we believe in allowing life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, we should first seek those things which do not deprive others of theirs.

Before taxes come up, unless any of you are actually making the quarter of a million dollars required for increased taxes, can we please stop the anti-taxation spiel and be thankful that we do have roads, working stop lights, police, fire departments and teachers(all socialist entities within our government) and pay these people the paychecks they deserve?
 
Back
Top