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Thread: A "war" I can finally get behind?

  1. #17
    nepenthes_ak's Avatar
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    no the only thing wrong with what they are doing is they are going into other countrys waters and killing whales... they can do it in their own waters, even though its wrong.... its appart of their culture...

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    Nepenthesian Nepfreak's Avatar
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    @rattler: The difference is that unlike with cows or deer, whaling is a significant threat to the already diminished population. The whale population today is something like 10% of what it used to be, and not all because of whaling but also because of climate swings, development of breeding grounds, etc. The whales the Japanese kill are a threatened species and protected in every other country except for Japan -- where, unfortunately, there seems to be a good number of them.
    If whales went extinct, the effect on the oceans would be devastating. Without whales (which consume massive amounts of krill), the krill population goes waay up, causing the phytoplankton (which krill eat) to decline. phytoplankton is the bottom of the food chain, so every animal that eats the phytoplankton and every animal that eats the animals that eat the phytoplankton are affected. Kill a deer, and there are always more. They're in no danger of becoming extinct at the present, and there are laws limiting the number you can kill per year (I think; you would know.) The whaling off the coast of japan is unregulated slaughter.

    @NepAK: Unfortunately you're right. It's perfectly legal for the Japanese to whale as long as it's for so called "scientific" purposes. But if you ask me no "scientific purpose" is important enough to risk wiping out an entire group of threatened whale species. As for "It's part of their culture," I don't know about you but I don't want to see whale species go extinct so the Japanese can keep their cultural traditions. They can eat venison, pork and beef like everyone else!
    Insanity is a sane response to an insane world.

  3. #19
    rattler's Avatar
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    you evidently have no clue what the show is about as the Japanese are going after whales off of Antarctica, not Japan.....they are in international waters, there for international laws should apply so unless they are breaking international law i dont see an issue.....if the whales are CITES listed i can see an issue, if not......well dont see how its different from killing a deer.......
    cervid serial killer
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  4. #20
    swords's Avatar
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    I agree with Nepfreak there.

    The only part that is touchy for me is the traditional part of it. I greatly respect rights of cultural traditions, yet there comes a time when modern day realism (reality) must finally encroach on our fantasy worlds of "tradition". Traditions = fantastic ideals, not always realistic ideals. Especially in the sense that a species is threatened with extinction it's time to wake up and do something constructive if they intend to keep any semblance of their whaling tradition for much longer. When there again appears to be a surplus of whales perhaps limited hunting can be reinstated and carefully monitored so such a depletion never again occurs. Not a lot wrong with that from a practical standpoint, as it's done with numerous species. At least that's the most realistic and achievable goal to the whole "tradition" argument I can come up with, which saves both the whales and ultimately the tradition.

    My antithesis of hunting (any creature) is merely my own emotions over infliction of pain and death on another conscious being. Though I was a vegetarian years ago I do eat meat nowadays. However, I can guarantee you that if I had to kill it myself I would not be a meat eater. So, thank the gods for Rainbow Foods and ****** Corned Beef! lol!

  5. #21
    rattler's Avatar
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    philosophically or practically there i no difference between buying a steak from a supermarket or shooting the cow and carving the steak out yourself.......the end result is the same......a dead animal.....to think anything else is lying to yourself........
    cervid serial killer
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  6. #22
    swords's Avatar
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    I agree. I never said it was any different. Infact, I think menus should say "Dead Baby Cow With Parmesan Cheese" instead of "Veal Parmigiana" I'm all for more realism in menus.

    All I said was that I would not go and kill an animal myself, what's hard to understand about that? I know many people who eat meat but don't hunt. I just don't have the "will to kill" as it were.

  7. #23
    Nepenthesian Nepfreak's Avatar
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    LOL rattler, you got me there! I had no idea whatsoever that they were in antarctica! Now it's more interesting!

    The rest of what I said still stands though, and yes, whales are in CITES appendix I. There was a proposal to downlist two species -- the minke and byrd's whale -- to appendix II, thereby raising bans of trading, which Greenpeace vehemently opposed and never did pass fortunately.

    @the whole "killing vs. eating animals" thing, both of you are right IMO. I eat pork and steak, and yes, philosophically it's the exact same thing as killing a cow or pig, but less humane because of the holding pens and terrible conditions they're subjected to. If I'm sure if I followed a piglet from birth to slaughter and killed it myself I would never eat pork again. I just wouldn't have the stomach. So I fall in with prolly the majority of Americans who eat meat but just don't think about how the meat got on the aisle in stop&shop.

    I was a bit blunt on the cultural heritage thing. I didn't mean to insult Japanese culture or tradition, sorry if I came across that way
    Insanity is a sane response to an insane world.

  8. #24
    swords's Avatar
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    No need for apologies, I didn't mean to say that your mention of tradition was being derogatory or anything like that. My own ideas though probably would come off as being offensive to a Japanese whaler, by eschewing tradition for the sake of practicality and a long-term outlook.

    The aspect of cultural traditions is always in my mind when thinking on these kinds of topics that claim a cultural significance or innate "need" to do something or other. However problematic it seems, we must remember that all "Traditions" (of any culture) are essentially ritualistic modes of thought (states of mind) handed down from older generations. Traditions initially serve their purpose, which is to unite a given culture in it's infancy. However, many traditions practiced today are not essential for the continued existence and health of a given culture. The Japanese for example, may eat just about any other fish from the seas, a ban on whaling alone does not truly effect the life and health of the Japanese as a people. Other than imparting a sense of disappointment over not not having the ability to fulfill a tradition. However much we wish to respect traditions, when bigger issues are at stake such as extinction of a species, I feel that we humans, have to forgo some of our idyllic fantasies to make a better world for all to potentially enjoy again both whales and whalers.

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