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Thread: Special Comment: Proposition 8

  1. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by mabudon View Post
    idontlikeform how did it receive so much anti funding if there ain't a bunch of gay-fearing haters out there??
    It's not a matter of fearing or hating gays. The yes side was funded because a lot of people, mostly Christians and Mormons, do not want to be forced to deal with the aftermath of homosexual marriages and their effect on our society here in California.
    Quote Originally Posted by DrWurm
    If by homosexual agenda, you mean equality, yes there is a homosexual agenda. The courts already ruled that no church can be forced to marry a couple, be them gay or products of divorce. Religious marriage means nothing to the government. It is a practice done by an independent group, so they can do whatever they please.
    I've never heard of this. I'd be interested in reading about it if you can provide a source.
    Quote Originally Posted by DrWurm
    As far as teaching gay marriage in schools, before anything of the sort can be taught in schools, a consent slip is sent home to parents with all the curriculum and a choice of whether or not they want their child to attend. Yes-on-8 used the 1st grader lesbian wedding of their teacher as "proof" of this, except 2 parents opted their kids out and the trip was parent proposed.

    Yes, some teachers out their may break the rules. That is to the fault of the teachers. Just because there is a potential to steal things does not make everyone a thief.
    It's my understanding that these things played out a little different than this. But I don't want to debate it point by point. Even if teaching gay marriage isn't institutionalized many in academia are very far left and have pro-gay sentiments already. Most likely the bigger problem would be legally dealing with their in class off topic commentary and then not having a legal leg to stand on when parents complain about it.
    Quote Originally Posted by DrWurm
    As for religion, as I've said before: leave your God at home when you vote. When you let your religious beliefs influence how government functions, you undermine the intent of the constitution. Every time you let religion into politics, we are taken one step back from becoming the land of freedom, towards being a land like Iraq.
    What is the point in having a religion if we don't practice it in our daily lives, which includes our voting? Would you have us Christians NOT vote our conscience? Do you disregard your conscience when you vote? Do you not vote according to your world-view as well?

    Perhaps I've made a mistake commenting on this thread. It seems their is plenty of anti-Christian sentiment here.

  2. #42
    Metal King
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    IDLF- we have allowed gay marriage for a few years now, there was no "aftermath", again empirical evidence rules the day

    As for feeling you've made a mistake for posting here, that is not the case, this is a discussion area after all. Personally I have nothing against "christians", so long as they understand (as has been stated previously) that it is a PRIVATE thing. Base all the decisions you want on it, that's fine, I will not judge another person living their life.

    HOWEVER once your "faith" starts making you feel entitled to tell others what they can and can't do based SOLELY on the teachings of your faith you have far overstepped the boundaries of what that faith should have been in the first place, a personal guidebook if you will

    the above warrants a HUGE disclaimer- I tried to clarify it enough there but just in case- in the case of many laws, they exist solely so folks can't use the ignorance defense- if you kill someone, it is fairly easy to judge that as a bad act without having to consult some ancient book- a person has been deprived of their own life due to your actions, anyone who thinks they CAN justify random killings is crazy, religion or no. Thus we have a law saying "if you kill someone, you get punished like so" and anyone who does see fit to kill someone can't claim ANY kind of priveledge.... If I, say want to play basketball with someone, hang out with someone all the time, even swear some kind of oath of fidelity etc to someone, what the HELL does to do to anyone else??

    The answer, of course, is nothing.

    The doomsday scenario put forth by the folks with the gay-fearing agenda (and THAT group is real, if informally coordinated) about people being forced to accept public sex-acts, gay themed legislation, a pink paint job on the white house and California getting covered in flows of molten lava is laughable, the "homosexual agenda" if it exists is as stated above, equality and equal rights.

    IDLF, I am NOT attacking you, discussion is key to understanding after all
    Da Growlist

    "You don't need a license to drive a sandwich"-Spongebob Squarepants

  3. #43
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    What is the point in having a religion if we don't practice it in our daily lives, which includes our voting? Would you have us Christians NOT vote our conscience? Do you disregard your conscience when you vote? Do you not vote according to your world-view as well?

    Perhaps I've made a mistake commenting on this thread. It seems their is plenty of anti-Christian sentiment here.
    I would have to agree with you on that point. Anti-religious bigotry -- anti-christian in particular -- is tolerated, if not outright encouraged, particularly at university. Religion, regardless of its affiliation is among the most emotionally-charged aspects of human behavior. The notion that one can simply vote in a vacuum and without any religious principles is naïve at best.

    Again, I must reiterate that anger due to all-too frequent legislation from the bench has as much to do with the success of Proposition Eight here in California than the consequence of gay marriage.

    Homophobia in California is a red herring at best . . .
    “Sì perché l'autorità dell'opinione di mille nelle scienze non val per una scintilla di ragione di un solo . . ."

    -- Galileo "Biff" Galilei

  4. #44
    Californian in DC DrWurm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by idontlikeform View Post
    I've never heard of this. I'd be interested in reading about it if you can provide a source.
    I don't have a specific source, but because religious marriage is based upon the rules in a certain religion, interfering with the decision of who the curches will or will not marry is a blatant violation of the first ammendment.

    Quote Originally Posted by idontlikeform View Post
    Most likely the bigger problem would be legally dealing with their in class off topic commentary and then not having a legal leg to stand on when parents complain about it.
    You're right. Most likely, kids will eventually learn that gay marriage exists and that there are conflicting opinions about it. Most likely it'd be from fellow classmates though. That is when you as a parent step in and talk to them about it. If you truly believe gay marriage is morally wrong, you are completely free to raise your children to also believe it is wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by idontlikeform View Post
    What is the point in having a religion if we don't practice it in our daily lives, which includes our voting? Would you have us Christians NOT vote our conscience? Do you disregard your conscience when you vote? Do you not vote according to your world-view as well?

    Perhaps I've made a mistake commenting on this thread. It seems their is plenty of anti-Christian sentiment here.
    First of all, I'd like to preface this by saying that I am NOT anti-Christian or anti-religious (I am anti-Scientology, but I consider that a dangerous cult).

    That being said, Christianity, at its core, is a religion about loving your fellow neighbor. Look at the teachings of Jesus himself. As far as I know, Jesus was not too much of a fire and brimstone guy. He does not seem like the kind of person who would've forced other people to follow his teachings via legislature.

    Here is what I submit to you. If you had not been exposed to Christianity or any other religion, do you think you would have the same negative views of homosexuality? I believe that is how one should vote. Based not on religious conscience, but human conscience.

  5. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by mabudon View Post
    IDLF- we have allowed gay marriage for a few years now, there was no "aftermath", again empirical evidence rules the day
    This isn't true. I heard about one couple, on the radio, that got married in a church, and then on their legal marriage contract it said "party A" and "party B." They crossed this out and put "Bride" and "Groom." When they got back home from their honeymoon they found out through the mail that their marriage certificate had been denied. Besides, it's not just the cases we know of that are the issue, or even the ones that actually have happened already that we don't know about, it's also the cases that have not come up yet. It's also the fact that we have so many far-left judges here in California that keep pushing the interpretation of the law in a far left direction. The laws aren't static they evolve. They shouldn't but they do on account of our judges here.
    Quote Originally Posted by mabudon View Post
    HOWEVER once your "faith" starts making you feel entitled to tell others what they can and can't do based SOLELY on the teachings of your faith you have far overstepped the boundaries of what that faith should have been in the first place, a personal guidebook if you will
    Then those beliefs would not be absolute would they? And they are then utterly worthless. What would be the point in even having them?
    Quote Originally Posted by mabudon View Post
    the above warrants a HUGE disclaimer- I tried to clarify it enough there but just in case- in the case of many laws, they exist solely so folks can't use the ignorance defense- if you kill someone, it is fairly easy to judge that as a bad act without having to consult some ancient book- a person has been deprived of their own life due to your actions, anyone who thinks they CAN justify random killings is crazy, religion or no. Thus we have a law saying "if you kill someone, you get punished like so" and anyone who does see fit to kill someone can't claim ANY kind of priveledge.
    Then why is abortion legal and funded by our government? If we can redefine right and wrong, life, and even rights any way we want we can justify doing anything, including murder.
    Quote Originally Posted by mabudon View Post
    The doomsday scenario put forth by the folks with the gay-fearing agenda (and THAT group is real, if informally coordinated) about people being forced to accept public sex-acts, gay themed legislation, a pink paint job on the white house and California getting covered in flows of molten lava is laughable, the "homosexual agenda" if it exists is as stated above, equality and equal rights.

    IDLF, I am NOT attacking you, discussion is key to understanding after all
    Let me get this straight. The gay agenda is not real but the "gay-fearing agenda" is? Can't you at least see a little hypocrisy in your statements here? Can't you at least see how calling it "gay-fearing agenda" when they don't identify themselves that way but instead as Christians and Mormons is a little inflammatory, disrespectful, and unnecessary? It isn't like I haven't objected to your name calling.

  6. #46
    Metal King
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    IDLF- again I am being respectful and am NOT name-calling. I wasn't implying any religion or anything like that, I should have put even more qualifiers on my last post and maybe narrowed it down a bit.

    Maybe I can break down the last comment a little bit first- YES the gay fearing agenda is real- the "gay agenda" of wanting to be able to live their lives in peace with full rights is, oddly, PUT FORTH BY GAY PEOPLE. IF there was some substantial gay involvement in the "anti gay rights" side of things I suppose the "gay fearing agenda" would not be an appropriate term for the phenomenon. As it stands, most folks who are down on gays are NOT gay...

    Calling the desire for equality "the gay agenda" is EXACTLY the same as calling the entire civil rights movement "the black agenda", - there were a LOT of black folks FOR the movement, and plenty of folks against it- but how many black people were firmly opposed to it exactly?? It wasn't rational thinking on the "NO to the civil rights movement" side, it was fear and hatred
    Da Growlist

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  7. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by DrWurm View Post
    You're right. Most likely, kids will eventually learn that gay marriage exists and that there are conflicting opinions about it. Most likely it'd be from fellow classmates though. That is when you as a parent step in and talk to them about it. If you truly believe gay marriage is morally wrong, you are completely free to raise your children to also believe it is wrong.
    Yes but my job as a parent is a lot harder when I have to compete with authority figures like teachers, who are teaching my kids 7 hours a day 5 days a week from age 5 till they are 18. Not to mention that the far left slant on everything is piled on even further when they go to college. At best, I can realistically hope they will be like the prodigal son.
    Quote Originally Posted by DrWurm View Post
    Look at the teachings of Jesus himself. As far as I know, Jesus was not too much of a fire and brimstone guy.
    You evidently haven't read the Four Gospels lately then because there actually is quite a lot of this stuff talked about by Jesus.
    Quote Originally Posted by DrWurm View Post
    He does not seem like the kind of person who would've forced other people to follow his teachings via legislature.
    And yet the Bible says he will return to conquer the whole earth and that everyone will bow down to him. I'm afraid your sense of Jesus is a bit off. He's actually a pretty zealous and adamant guy.
    Quote Originally Posted by DrWurm View Post
    Here is what I submit to you. If you had not been exposed to Christianity or any other religion, do you think you would have the same negative views of homosexuality?
    No. I would probably have no morals except the ones that suit me at the moment.
    Quote Originally Posted by DrWurm View Post
    I believe that is how one should vote. Based not on religious conscience, but human conscience.
    I respect your views. I don't fault you for voting this way.

    I have to accept how things are as best I can when what I want to vote for loses but that doesn't mean I won't continue to vote for what I think is right.

  8. #48
    Metal King
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    This isn't true. I heard about one couple, on the radio, that got married in a church, and then on their legal marriage contract it said "party A" and "party B." They crossed this out and put "Bride" and "Groom." When they got back home from their honeymoon they found out through the mail that their marriage certificate had been denied. Besides, it's not just the cases we know of that are the issue, or even the ones that actually have happened already that we don't know about, it's also the cases that have not come up yet.
    oh and IDLF- I sincerely hope that neither you nor any of your friends nor family suffered too much in the "aftermath" of that clerical error, if there's anything I can do to help I'm here man
    Da Growlist

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