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Body Worlds

  • Thread starter nightsky
  • Start date

nightsky

Lover of Mountains
Has anyone else seen these exhibits? For those who may not have heard of it, it's a traveling exhibit (actually a few different exhibits tour the world simultaneously) of bodies, body parts, organs, etc, plastinated and posed and displayed. After wanting to see this for many years, I finally went to one today. It was pricey, but completely worth it. I've always been interested in anything medical related, anatomy, physiology, and just science in general. So mainly, I went to learn and be educated. I have seen cadavers before during college anatomy classes, but to see the body displayed and dissected these ways was amazing. I was surprised by the 'artistic' qualities a lot of the exhibit pieces also have.

This exhibit focused on the heart and circulatory system. So there were many displays of the circulatory system preserved, with the remainder of the body gone. The result is a fascinating display of thousands of vessels in pose, in the shape of the body they once kept alive. It's beautiful, yet strange, to know that was once a living person. And also, it's very interesting and I found the whole experience profoundly educational. I was told it would take about two hours to see the whole exhibit, but it took me 3.5 hours. I read every little tidbit of info, and really studied every exhibit.

They also the other body systems on display, and had displays of different organs/systems that were both healthy, and then those that were diseased or defective. They also had a few animals on display ( a chicken, lamb, adult and small camels, etc.) My wife had a hard time with the embryo/fetus display. I personally wasn't disturbed by any of it, but it does make one ponder the fragility of our life, and certainly makes one ponder mortality. It also reinforced wanting to be healthy (not that I'm not already). Seeing obese bodies, diseased lungs, hearts, burst arteries, brains with massive strokes, bloated hearts, etc made it 'more real' than just reading about it. I noticed especially at the 'smoking/emphysema' exhibit that several visitors commented they would immediately give up smoking after seeing what it does!

One thing I wish they would have done: Told the history of each person, how they died, and what age they were. It was odd looking at a person posed and split open, but having no idea of the 'person' you were looking at. I would have loved some background on them.

Anyway - if you haven't seen this and it comes to a museum near you, go see it! I cannot recommend it enough.

Here's the main site:
www.bodyworlds.com

Picture database:
http://www.bodyworlds.com/en/media/picture_database.html

No photos were allowed unfortunately. But pictures don't do them justice anyway.

This page has a video that will load at the top - just give it a minute and it will come on automatically:
http://theleonardo.org/bodyworlds/index.php
 
I saw that last year! It was pretty cool, they have these slides of a human body cut into thin sheets! You will love it as long as preserved dead bodies aren't on the list of things that make you puke.
 
That was the single most stunning exhibit I've ever seen! I loved it!

I took my little 11 year old cousin cos she wanted to see it but my aunt is rather squeamish about stuff like that. She was an EMT for a about 10 years (before going back to plant leasing and service) so I don't know why this exhibit bugged her so much. Maybe if you're busy saving someone's life you don't have time to think about what you're seeing and get grossed out? I never thought to probe as to why she didn't wanna see it. The Buddhists at work freaked out when the company hung up the full color poster advertisement for it (our company ID gets us a discount if we show it the museum).

As an artist I find anatomy fascinating. And this exhibit goes far beyond what I've learned about musculature in books and anatomical software. There's just no comparison. I had meant to go back by myself and take pics and try some "life drawings" when the kid wasn't with but I never got back to the museum.

I've seen a documentary about this which showed that in either Germany or The Netherlands they have a permanent museum of this stuff that was done back in the 1800s by some unknown process. And it's not just humans but also: horses, elephants, apes, etc. I'd be stoked to spend a day there!
 
There are serious questions about the origin of the bodies and it isn't something the promoters are keen to talk about. If they even know the answer. It's enough to say that the people are Chinese and how they came to be dead and end up on display is unknown to us. Since I'm a grad student at a medical center, I know people who went to see one of the exhibits out of "professional" interest. A couple other people I know who went to see it said it was because of their interest in science, but they're more creepy than scientific. I think the whole thing is horrifying and wasn't willing to support it.
 
It was here in Rochester last year..
I didnt go..

I think its repulsive..
if it was plastic models of bodies, that would be fine..
but the fact that its real bodies really creeps me out..

and yes, there has been much controversy about where the bodies came from..
it might not be all legit..

Every american highschool science classroom in the 1940's-1970's had a human skeleton on display,
for educational purposes..
what many people didnt know was they were all REAL human skeletons..
thousands of them all across the country..
they were all from India, acquired under questionable circumstances..
I dont think any are left in classrooms today..

I have no problem with people donating their bodies to science..
thats all well and good..I would even consider that myself!
I wont need my body once im done with it..

but I find it wrong that someone's mother or father might be on display, all cut up and flayed open,
for thousands of people to view...when the body perhaps was not acquired morally or legitimately..

Scot
 
I managed to see that exhibit in San Francisco a few years back, though I think it was one of the original promoter's now-many competitors; and they had a row with the Department of Health at the time when preservative "materials" from some of the bodies began to leak in the exhibit space . . .

Nice . . .
 
My mom is in cultural anthropology and she's been writing all these papers on this stuff, and she's really against it.

I think she said that the bodies were from dead Chinese prisoners. I think it's sick how they take these bodies and put them on display; those people are freaks.

-Ben
 
I saw something like this at some point, but all of the bodies were made out of wax. I think they were old anatomy school specimens from who knows when.

As for these exhibits if they are using bodies that were not specifically donated to science by the individual who is on display then I have to agree with Drosera36's mother and say I am against them and would urge people to not support these exhibits.

Out of curiosity Drosera, is your mother a well know published anthropologist? I only ask because I am a grad student in anthropology now and wonder if I have read anything of hers.
 
We had this same argument going on when Body Worlds was here in St. Paul. Whoever it was that was investigating these claims of impropriety on body acquisitions apparently decided it was on the up and up enough for them or they wouldn't have extended the show another couple months. It eventually became the top grossing (no pun intended) exhibit the museum ever had. At the show they had a booth where you can sign up to have yourself made into a plastinate (display body) when you die. Plenty of people were actually signing up.

Anatomy has been a touchy subject throughout history, horrifing many, however, without a real grasp of it we'd be doing medicine and surgery in particular, blindly. I really can't grasp why anyone with an interest in anatomy would be against this.

A fun thing to do at body worlds:
walk up behind someone who's looking at a display and lightly mummer "help me!" with your mouth closed. lol! :)
 
  • #10
The shows are so profitable that no one involved is interested in finding any, ummm, skeletons in the closet.
 
  • #11
They (the Chamber of Commerce IIRC) discussed not letting it set up as these objections were raised early. They did the investigation and the show went on. I'm far more against shrine circuses and zoos that abuse living animals than these sorts of things that use cadavers as teaching tools / art.

Even if they had each person's own diary on display expressing their desire for plastination (ok that would be a little mental no?) or any other documentation people have surreptitiously demanded, I think there would still be vociferous objections to it. I won't say anyone's objections are wrong, only that I don't understand them provided investigations are not finding problems. I don't think it's a money making conspiracy, though I'd certainly like to see it again free!

Death and it's associated imagery is scary, from medical professionals to the two guys at work who grew up in Buddhist monastery's in Laos. But really there's nothing gross, perverse or "scary" about the whole exhibit. Nor really anything that exudes an essence of death. As they often used to say "The map (the word, idea, concept, item) is not the territory (thing, person, substance, place)". In this instance we could say "The corpse is not the person". In reality these are no longer people but displays, inanimate, unconscious "items". Just like aunt Nessie in the box at the funeral isn't really our aunt Nessie anymore. Our sadness comes from knowing Nessie's consciousness is gone, we will no longer have her insights or receive / transmit emotion with her any longer. It's not so much that her frame is no longer animate, a frame which perhaps actually gave her much physical pain before death. I guess I have a weird view of these kinda things, as usual, so I suppose that shouldn't surprise anyone!

But unless I see definitive proof that the Body Worlds exhibit is made with unwilling participants / executed prisoners I have to say I support it.. I'm not talking about freelance shows started by Japanese firms that are using dead Chinese. Which I have read about having started up since the original started touring and that's not a good thing giving a bad name to something I think is highly benefitial.


unserious time:

"When I die I think I'm gonna will myself to a group of Necrophiliacs.
Finally for once they'll get a freebie and not have to spend the night digging in the graveyard, just, have at it."

-David Cross :)
 
  • #12
Out of curiosity Drosera, is your mother a well know published anthropologist? I only ask because I am a grad student in anthropology now and wonder if I have read anything of hers.

Well I'm not sure if she's well known, but she has written some books. Her name's Ulrike Linke. She made a book called Blood and Nation I think.

-Ben
 
  • #13
The name doesn't ring any bells but its been a few years since I had my class on the body and anthropology. It was a fascinating class and I had a strong interest in views of the body etc.

As for the exhibit I object in some ways to the fact that profit is made. Human bodies are being treated as a commodity no different than mineral specimens in a museum and this I think is a slippery slope. Also if it cant be shown that the bodies were obtained through willing donation I don't think it should be allowed to go on. If society decides that they can take bodies without clear explicit consent then individuals no longer own their own bodies and this is a bad thing to condone to any degree.
 
  • #14
As for the exhibit I object in some ways to the fact that profit is made. Human bodies are being treated as a commodity no different than mineral specimens in a museum and this I think is a slippery slope. Also if it cant be shown that the bodies were obtained through willing donation I don't think it should be allowed to go on. If society decides that they can take bodies without clear explicit consent then individuals no longer own their own bodies and this is a bad thing to condone to any degree.
I agree with the last part, however, I have not seen anything in lieu of facts concerning the misappropriation of the bodies for the Body Worlds exhibit, though plenty of the same rumor circulates every time the exhibit opens and an investigation is started anew. How much "proof" will finally be enough to satisfy people? If no investigation is finding the problems rumored by the opposition, that leaves only my other speculation as to why people oppose this project.

Much of the objections and rumor aimed at the whole project, I feel, is fueled by superstition based upon some kind of believed innate "holiness" of the human body over the dead bodies of other creatures. What is the quantifiable difference between a dead ape and a dead human? Neither are any longer what they once were, both ARE now simply a commodity to be either buried with pomp and circumstance, sold to hospitals or otherwise processed. Viewed objectively, even in death one finds the unending grindings of economy, regardless of what happens subjectively with the body. One need only to look to see that profiting from corpses of man and beast, in a variety of ways, is not anything new and as any anthropologist should be able to tell you, death-profit (in various forms) goes back many centuries in almost all cultures.

What is it that makes one form of profit-after-death better than any other? Only our adherence to a subjective "morality".
A traditional funeral involves dozens of personnel, all whom profit from working on the body, burying or cremating the body, creating the memorial plaque or headstone. A dead ape or human being taxadermied or otherwise used in medical research/organ transplants also effects an exchange of money. "It just seems different somehow", but it isn't really. The dead are still dead and the money is still changing hands.
 
  • #15
Insufficient evidence to block the exhibit does not mean reasonable evidence that the bodies were obtained through moral means and that peoples rights were not violated in the process. As for the funeral business, that is profit made off of what the individual or the family wanted, not them being made into some circus sideshow spectacle. I also think something you are failing to recognize in this matter is that humanity as whole does not think objectively, but instead uses some form of spiritual belief in matters where human death is involved. I am not saying everyone doesnt think objectively, just the majority of humanity does not but leans on its religion. I am also not implying that this profiting is anything new, but trafficking of live human beings for different forms of slavery is not new either should we just look the other way toward this? The real issue here is that human beings are being turned into commodities to be used to turn a profit, no longer being seen as humans but as merely objects. Should we go back to robbing the graves of Native Americans and those of lesser races? This whole the dead are dead argument just doesnt hold water when you are talking about humans. People have belief systems that hold something about humans to be unique and sacred and if you violate those beliefs in some way through the use of bodies that were not volunteered, then you are hurting living people, likely people who are family members of the deceased. This is a violation of others humanity and thinking that the dead are dead end of story is over objectification and when dealing with people this creates a slippery slope that can be used to justify some scary things.
 
  • #16
Insufficient evidence to block the exhibit does not mean reasonable evidence that the bodies were obtained through moral means and that peoples rights were not violated in the process.
True, however as I said before, I don't believe this is some big conspiracy (or agenda) to get everyone plastinated and put on world tour. However, future plastinates are going to be quite numerous if we go by the number of persons signing up after they viewed the exhibit. This part of the debate will be null by the next generation of plastinates.
What will your feelings be towards the show composed entirely of those who saw the original show and desired to become plastinates after death?

As for the funeral business, that is profit made off of what the individual or the family wanted, not them being made into some circus sideshow spectacle.
Have you been to the exhibit? There was no hawker in a big hat, no clowns or fat bearded ladies. It was a science museum exhibit, placed not far removed from the Egyptian mummy and the mummified babies from the South American Indians.
How much different are the mummy displays than this?
Is it the fact that the Body Worlds project travels around and is not a stationary exhibit which makes it more distasteful than another permanent installation?
I am trying to understand other viewpoints on it so please don't take offense to my questions here.

I also think something you are failing to recognize in this matter is that humanity as whole does not think objectively, but instead uses some form of spiritual belief in matters where human death is involved. I am not saying everyone doesnt think objectively, just the majority of humanity does not but leans on its religion. I am also not implying that this profiting is anything new, but trafficking of live human beings for different forms of slavery is not new either should we just look the other way toward this?
I don't see the connection with slavery at all. I agree, we are bound by our notions of "morality" over death-profit. I even said so in my post. However when viewed objectively, hard as it may be, there is still death-profit. I'm not saying it's right, I'm making no value judgments at all, merely exposing it. As distasteful as we might think any money being made off death is, no matter how the money is made, it is an occurrence in actuality.
As far as Body Worlds in particular charging admission, it is a learning experience to go and see it. I viewed it as another study in anatomy. Seeing what I would never otherwise see in my life. It was a large exhibit and certainly transporting the works carefully would not be cheap. As I said, I learned so much by viewing it in comparison to my books and anatomy software, it was certainly worth the price.

The real issue here is that human beings are being turned into commodities to be used to turn a profit, no longer being seen as humans but as merely objects.
We live in a western economic system thus we the people have always been nothing but a commodity to make the rich richer, in other words, participating in economy. Whether in work or in death. Perhaps that is a bit too morbid and existential or just plain nihilistic. Sorry about that, but I didn't set it up! lol! ;)

Should we go back to robbing the graves of Native Americans and those of lesser races?
See my mention of the Egyptian mummy or mummified South American Indians at the museum. How one sees these sorts of things is up to the individual I guess.

This whole the dead are dead argument just doesnt hold water when you are talking about humans. People have belief systems that hold something about humans to be unique and sacred and if you violate those beliefs in some way through the use of bodies that were not volunteered, then you are hurting living people, likely people who are family members of the deceased. This is a violation of others humanity and thinking that the dead are dead end of story is over objectification and when dealing with people this creates a slippery slope that can be used to justify some scary things.
Again, I agree with you on this point. However, in the instance of Body Worlds in particular you are presupposing that the bodies of the exhibit were not legitimately acquired. I too would find that a bad thing, as peoples wishes certainly should be respected. If it were to come out that yes absolutely these people were murdered to become plastinates then, I would certainly be against it as well, I'm not completely heartless over here! lol!
I was saddened to hear of the cases of the Japanese firms doing their own copy-cat Body Worlds show that the Chinese gov busted up using bodies that were being prepared on farms in the country in rooms of ice blocks, "ghetto plastinates" and not in proper facilities working through proper channels as they say. This sort of black market plastination puts a bad name on something that I feel can be a very educational exhibit.
 
  • #17
People who choose to be plastinated after death even if it is as a result of this exhibit are doing so as an individual choice. Unless it can be shown that this is the case then I dont think the exhibit should be shown. The fact that there is an investigation in some many cities that the exhibit goes to tells me that there is not clear evidence that the individual on display wanted to be there.

The Egyptian mummy and the South American Mummies were most likely stolen from their original countries in the last 300+ years. Unless they are on loan and have been explicitly sent for display I dont think they should be displayed either. Now if the Egyptian one is on loan from the Egyptian government then I have no moral objection to its display. The South AMerican ones probably are wanted back by their country of origin as the cultures that mummified were centered mostly in Peru and Chile both of which do not allow you to export mummies period. Unfortuately there are few if any decendents form these people as European diseases wiped them out followed closely by mistreatment by colonial governments.

I wasnt trying to connect this to slavery I was just pointing out that because something has gone on for a long time doesnt mean its write. Anti-semitism has a long history in Europe that doesnt mean we should just turn a blind eye when it is present.

Participation in an exploitive economy has existed since humans began horticulture as a way to survive. but again just because it has a long history doesnt mean its right or ok.

Again its the job of the exhibitors to show that they got the bodies legally and morally if they cant then it shouldnt be shown.
 
  • #18
I agree, the mummies were likely stolen, as are most in most museums, orchids in botanical institutions, etc. Dr. Zahi Aiwass of the Cairo museum (sp?) is working on retrieving any and all antiquities he can. However, even if they are all returned to their place it will only be a simulacrum, a simulation of any "sanctity" they once had. Just like the touring of the tombs, how many tourists die of the mummy's curse today by touring the sepulchers? The illusion and mystique of it is already completely destroyed. In actuality there can be no reparations large enough, nothing can fix what has already been done, even if all is given back and all is forgiven. "Once fallen, the stars can not be put back in the sky".

"Fun" tid bit of death-profit: They used to sell Mummia, no doubt you know what that is? (since you've made a study of Anthro) For those who don't, Mummia is "medicine" made from ground up mummies, sold widely in the mummy hunting heydays of the 19th century. There's nothing magical about eating ground mummy powder that will cure the syph or any of the other things they sold it as a remedy for. But if we wanna talk exploitation of the dead, being made into a worthless patent medicine probably tops the list! Even the ancient necromancers revered bodies more than that.

I certainly agree with your other points about anti-semetism and the corruption instilled into us by the "holy" economy. To change the exploitation by economy however, will require something far beyond what even Marx and Engels envisioned. Which was simply exploitation for the masses instead of exploitation for the few. Which form of enslavement would you prefer this century the green chain or the blue? lol! I'm not against thinking about it certainly, it's better than the nihilistic and self destructive option we're confronted with daily but I'm not sure I could dream up an effective alternate scenario quick enough for a post today. lol!

I guess as far as the people who currently had willed their bodies to science and wound up as Body World plastinates we could look to old Forrest Gump:
"Willing your body to science is like dropping a box of chocolates - you never know what's gonna happen to it."
 
  • #19
What went on in the 1800's was bad, but it still goes on today. I know someone who was offered a complete real mummified individual in a country that will remain nameless. Also if you want to see true irreverence for the dead in the name of profit you only need to look at the burials found on the South Coast of Peru where many Nasca and Paracas culture cemeteries have been looted the bones just thrown to the side or broken in search of pots for sale, destroying not only the sacredness of the site but also any information that could have been learned from such at site.

As for this whole issue I think we pretty much agree on everything and are just looking at it form different angles. The only difference is you are looking for evidence that some wrong was committed while I am looking to see evidence that no wrong was committed. I am not trying to say either of these view points is more valid than the other just that they are different view points. I mean clearly your view point is wrong but still valid. LOL.
 
  • #20
lol! :)

I love these discussions!

Check out ebay for antiquities sometime, it seems funny they don't appear to have anyone watching that stuff closer!

In the old days there was an occult shop & mail order here in Minneapolis called the Tyrad Book Company AKA Worldwide Curio House which sold human bones & skulls along with plenty of other weird and wonderful items . I recall the skull ad clearly: "Human Skull $150. Specify bottom jaw or not. Number of teeth may vary. Please allow 8-10 weeks for delivery." The bones were small (probably metacarpals) sold for mojo bags. They never said where these items came from.
 
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