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tattooed fish, thoughts?

  • Thread starter Zero
  • Start date
  • #21
You guys...

A fish seems to me to be about as smart as a fly. People swat flies. The flies die. What's the big deal about these fish?

Plus, it's not like these are wild fish. They are born in captivity. Just like most goldfish, which, coincidentally, are used as live food for certain aquatic animals. Again, what's the big deal?

Plus, if they die, then they are probably ground up and turned into cow meal. Just like thousands upon thousands of wild fish are caught from the ocean to be filleted, ground up, and don't forget that fertilizer made from fish. Do you really think these caught fish actually have the nervous system and brain to comprehend pain upon a truly emotional and agonizing level when they are taken out of the water to suffocate slowly? Just as much as a fly does!

We grow CPs. Come on. This is like the worst hobby to debate fish cruelty! It's no big deal anyways. Our plants eat bugs! Our plants can eat rodents and fish and frogs! Our plants can be fertilized by fish that you may think "suffer"!

I'm not cruel, I'm just rational. If we put anti-fly-swatting laws into effect, what will that do? You'll have maggots everywhere and you'll regret ever having supported that law! Same with fish. Fish are natural prey. Some needles that happen to kill 50% of these fish are nothing compared to if we wanted to grind them up just because we can! Hmm...chancing the needle, or absolute undoubtable, horrible death. How do you think they would feel about that choice? Oh, wait...
 
  • #22
What is with that pig farm? What was the point of them tattooing all those pigs?
 
  • #23
I think most people imagine (myself included) that there's a difference between a "natural" predator/prey situation and someone altering an animal purely for fashionable motives.

I'm curious to know how anyone purports to know how another creature does or does not feel pain, Cos they don't yell? Or cos it makes you feel better not to have to think about the idea that it's a being just as conscious as yourself? I don't buy Aristotle's claim that animals are unthinking creatures akin to machines.
 
  • #24
True, swords, but what is natural about humans anymore?

It's no use in debating flies, anyway.

Edit in response to your edit:

If it was a creature just as conscious as myself, it'd have at least a 50-gram brain, let alone my 3+ pound (average human?-eh, maybe mine is a bit more than normal...) brain. I never said these fish were simply machines, I said they are akin to flies...I made that very clear. Do you not swat flies? Do flies feel pain, or not? Let me take things up a notch; a grasshopper. Do grasshoppers feel pain; does anyone even care? Are grasshoppers machines?
 
  • #26
Hardly anything about western human culture is naturalistic anymore, "naturalists" at the beach often get arrested - lol! But we're still basically natural bio-units. As of yet we're not fashionably altering people (at least not against their wills). There's a few conspiracy nuts out there that think there's secret Eugenics programs going on but I actually like the idea of humans moving away from being strictly biological entities. I welcome the age of gene line therapies, longevity research and other sort of mechanization of the human body (i.e. cyborgs). But again, for me that choice is a choice, not a "choice" imposed by some "super being" (i.e. human to fish).

I like Earth First but this video is rather foolish here. Nothing but a publicity stunt, and a poor one at that. I prefer them "spiking" trees marked to be cut, ha!
 
  • #27
Now it seems we're going to get into a religious debate... Superbeings...

Actually, no need to get into that.

Ultimately, it is our choice what happens to our world, and everything in it; I believe you wouldn't argue there. These fish are only one small, insignificant example of what we are doing to Earth. There is NO POINT in arguing fish rights, when we are killing beings that are proven to be conscious (i.e., people killing people in wars and perverted, selfish acts of murder, etc.)! Let alone destroying habitats of thousands of species, many of which are actually smarter than the common fish. What are laws doing about that?
 
  • #28
Uh, fish have been shown to show discomfort. What appears to be discomfort, anyways. Who can say?
 
  • #29
A fly shows discomfort when you swat it. At least, that's what I've noticed. :D

Who can say?

I'm just trying to say that there are more important things to think about and act upon than flies and fish.
 
  • #30
I'm glad I got a good response on this topic.
I don't think fish should be tattooed or dyed.
On the other hand, this fish seems happy and healthy.
It's in a well cared for 55 gallon tank and should live a long life.
As far as dogs go, to breed pure bred dogs, they and there offspring need to be tattooed to keep track of lineage.
My mother also works with the german shepard rescue of new england, and has adopted or fostered many dogs. Tracking on her non tattoed dogs is by injected microchip.
 
  • #31
I'm just trying to say that there are more important things to think about and act upon than flies and fish.
There's 6.5 billion or so people milling about the planet, there's a cause for everyone. If you can't find a cause you like but want to belong to one, make one up and be a pioneer. I've never seen a Save the Saprophytic Feeders campaign though. We could print up shirts with anti-swatting slogans like "Can't swat this!" But then we'd have the pro-swatter people with counter tee shirts saying "Keep your laws off my swatter!" lol! :D

I don't think people campaigning against fish manipulation (?), line-breeding dogs, factory farming, etc. takes any spotlight from other sorts of liberation or civil rights movements that involve humans. I don't see one cause as more worthy of attention than another, that's a judgment that each individual has to make. I figure it's all cumulative, eventually leading to a more progressive and better world as a whole. I'm merely glad to see people thinking and caring for something other than their immediate nervous system or culture comforts in some capacity.
 
  • #32
swatting flies is not analogous to injecting fish with dye..
they are not the same thing at all..

injecting the fish with dye is done only for profit..it is harming animals for personal gain..
I suppose roach exterminators also harm (kill) animals for personal gain! ;)
but there is, IMO, a huge moral difference..

yes, we have to "draw the line" somewhere..
its illegal to hit your dog with a baseball bat, or drown unwanted kittens, as it should be..but its not illegal to paint fish..because society has decieded mammals are "worthy" of cruelty law protection, and fish are far enough down the evolutionary ladder that they dont need to be protetected..

ok, fine..I can see the logic in placing the line there..
the line is above fish, but below kittens..
some think the line should be placed below fish..but above WHAT then?
yes, should flies and roaches be protected?
99.9% of people would obviously say no..

To me, it all comes down to humane treatment of the animal..
is swatting a fly "humane"?
I would say yes..it dies instantly..its actually far more "kind" to swat a fly than to let it get slowly digested inside your sarracenia pitcher! ;) where it can take literally days to die..

Is injecting fish with die and painting their skin "humane"?
no..I would say it isnt..
because it has the potential to harm or kill the animal, just for the sake of profit and "fashion".

that it why, to me, injecting fish with dye is much worse than swatting a fly..
and why they are totally different things, "apples and oranges"..not in the same class.

I had to kill an entire colony of Voles this past spring..
I wasnt happy about it, but it needed to be done.
they had tunnels and holes in the front yard, and were killing a tree..
the colony was growing larger and I didnt want them to spread into other gardens..

I did some research, found out rat and mouse poisons are very cruel..
they cause much pain and suffering before the animal dies..(the poison causes internal bleeding..they slowly die by having their insides ruptured.)

So I went with mousetraps instead..put some peanut butter on the trap, put the trap outside one of the holes, covered the trap with a clay flowerpot with a brick on top (to keep squirrels and birds from getting into the trap)..next morning, one dead vole..its little neck or back snapped in half instantly..
instant death..I believe the little buggers never feel a thing, they never even saw it coming..

I ended up getting nine of them! the entire colony..

yes, we need to kill vermin..and there is nothing wrong with that.
but we can choose to do it as humanely as possible..
im not going to catch a mouse, put it in a box, and beat it with a hammer..

I also have zero problems with hunting..

but if you had a band of hunters put a deer inside a football stadium, so they could get drunk, chase it down with their pickup trucks and beat it to death with bats and cinder blocks, I think many people would protest..

but shooting a deer with a gun out in the woods, for food..no problem..

you end up with a dead deer both ways..
but the difference is the motive and the method..

thats why im against fish being died and painted and purposly bred to be deformed..
but im all for "fly swatter rights"! ;)

Scot
 
  • #33
I thought it was fake! I had no idea that people tattoo/dye fish! I think it's horrible and people should not buy them, so maybe it will stop. This is disgusting :-(
 
  • #34
When I was a kid I used to look at National Geographic magazine and made fun of the Africans with their bones through the nose and those round disks in there lips. And then I realized that Americans are no different with pierced ears and guys with tatoos. I don't like either. And now, women have tatoos and men have pierced ears and I just read an article about teenagers doing this "self-embedding", where they stick all sorts of stuff inside their skin. What's with that?

Ya know, mollys are nice attractive fish, marbled, sailfin, lyretail,... We don't need to do anything more than recombine the gametes.

Nice Mandarin BTW!
 
  • #35
but IMO it "goes to far" when changes are so extreme that they adversely effect the health of the animal:

Scot

so your against all pure breds? most all have health problems associated with line breeding the breds.........and where do you draw the line at it? knee problems run in both sides of my family and what do you know 3 out of 4 of us kids have had knee problems requiring surgery before we were 22........and there is no true "cure" other than total knee replacement.....all this crap is about where individuals choose to draw their line that they wont cross.....rather not have others drawing that line for me......
 
  • #36
I don't know about the pain bit... Certainly their nervous system can experience pain otherwise, fish wouldn't still be around because they would have just been injuring themselves to death without knowing it. However, their memory span is like 5 seconds.

Now, if it causes it to live sickly the rest of its life, that's another matter.

As far as selective breeding, I see nothing wrong with it. I breed fancy guppies with huge tails and some fowl to have double lung capacity for long crows and other fowl that have tails that just keep growing.

Like these:
One of my guppies
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v70/Indiana_Gardener/Guppies/best-male-7-19-2008.jpg

My Tomaru
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v70/Indiana_Gardener/2008 birds/tomaru-x-6-mo-2.jpg
video of his grandfather http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L7nVaKwaMJ4

One of my long-tail roosters
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v70/Indiana_Gardener/2007 birds/hakuraikou-14-mo.jpg

The fancy guppies would never survive in the wild due to slower swimming than their wild counterparts. The long-crowing fowl could go wild easy enough. But the long-tailed fowl need very special care.

That brings me to an important point about selectively bred domestic creatures; none of them are like wild animals. And after all, that's the point isn't it, to make them so that they can live with us.

Now if you are going to alter something, give it the care that it needs. Otherwise, don't do it.

It's one matter to make something the way you like it and give it the proper care than to do it and not give it that care.

I love cichlids, but the parrot cichlids have never appealed to me. Not due to the shape, but the colors. They don't look natural. I don't care if someone wants to dye their dog's fur for Easter or whatever, it will grow out. Natural color enhancers in fish food can be great. But I really don't like it when someone permanently colors an animal. Geesh, don't cheat. If they want it that color, breed it that color. Show some real talent as a breeder and put the paint / ink down. A real breeder works with the genetics and pigments already there.

If tattooing a dog helps it out from getting lost, go for it. If you need to tattoo a wing web for flock records, fine (I don't do that... I use leg bands). If you need to toe punch a chick for ID, do it quick and painless. There is a difference between something that could prove beneficial to the well being of the animal and something that could cause it health problems, i.e. dying a fish.
 
  • #37
When I was a kid I used to look at National Geographic magazine and made fun of the Africans with their bones through their noses ...What's with that?
It's called cultural relativism , it doesn't need to "make sense" to someone living outside the culture or outside academia who wants to learn why certain people do these things. Worldviews (reality-tunnels) often develop quite differently when one is raised in a completely different context (environment) and using a language other than the subject/predicate based system of western European languages. The Vatican is horrified by this relativism and calls it the "creeping evil" of our time! lol! IIRC the adornments are simply ways of identifying members of your tribe, and ritually initiating the members as part of the tribe at certain life-stages. I think it's interesting even if I sure don't wanna go through some of it. I believe the disk lip people are actually Indians from South America, I just can't recall what tribe it is this many years after school! lol! :)


Rattler,
If gene line therapies are allowed to be developed, perhaps family histories of knee problems (diabetes and heart disease in my uncles family) could be combated and there would be a "cure". Don't convolute the issue and blame the animal rights people for that, look to the gov who won't allow it on "ethical" or "moral" grounds...
 
  • #38
actually if parents know full well bout these how is it any different than breeding two dogs that have history of hip dysplasia.....result is the same, offspring prone to a painful and possibly dibilitating condition......and for the record short of them figuring out how to tweak someones genes to control, say the shape of the nose, you wouldnt be able to fix my families "bad genes" all thats wrong is the shape of the notch in my femur that the patella rides in.......

as i said where do you draw the line? quite breeding thoroughbreds cause their muscles are so powerful they injure themselves every race? no more breeding pure bred hunting dogs cause their life expectancy is 1/2 to 2/3's what my pure bred schipperke is? no more breeding of cattle dogs cause when placed in city conditions they like to chase and herd things like cars and children.......not allowing couples to have kids cause of what their genetic code says and their is a 75% chance their kid will be born with a physical deformity or sickness that gives them a life expectancy of months or years not decades......

for the record i dont think humans are better than animals or animals deserve more rights than ppl cause they cant make decisions about their living conditions.....as far as im concerned im no higher on the totem pole than any other animal, ive seen wolves waste meat just like slob hunters.....seen prairie dogs destroy their habitat just like ppl.......other critters aint any better than us and we aint any better than them......
 
  • #39
nd for the record short of them figuring out how to tweak someones genes to control, say the shape of the nose, you wouldnt be able to fix my families "bad genes" all thats wrong is the shape of the notch in my femur that the patella rides in.......
dude, that's what genes control. None of the gene therapies are gonna be completed in one giant leap, damn that Armstrong for giving people the idea of "giant leaps" for mankind! But if we aren't even allowed to start, we can't ever finish. If this sort of thing is perfected it could be passed on to the critters we all love so much. My uncle is a big Sib. Husky fan but they always have bad knees or develop cancer by the time they reach 8 years or so they've gotta be put down. I wish he'd stop buying them.
 
  • #40
my buddy has a boxer.....likely be dead at 8 to 10 years old from cancer......dont really feel sorry for the dog, prolly going to have a better 8 years on this earth than lots that have it in their genes to live twice that.....are dogs with smashedin faces my thing? no but i aint going to tell someone thats going to treat an animal well not to buy it.....im not going to stop bird hunting just cause its likely my current dog will live through 2 different hunting dogs........

as i said....where do you draw the line? and who gets to decide where its drawn.....the same scientists that are studying Yellowstone grizzlies and are saying there needs to be a lead ammo ban around the park cause the griz are going out, feeding on the remains of hunter shot critters and ingesting lead(found in levels in their systems to low to show side effects in humans) and not considering that the whole Yellowstone ecosystem is a giant hot spring that naturally concentrates heavy metals in the soil and water...those bears are going to pop positive for arsenic too but no they dont tell yah that.........
 
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