Haha I wanted to see if the chitinases found in drosera dew drops could be used as a fungicide - haven't gotten their quite yet haha. Next time I'm in the lab though I'll see if I can grab a couple of ditch dews on my way to work and look for mycorrhizae. A lot of the cranberry I sampled had Drosera right along side it so there might very well be some. The roots probably aren't fibrous enough.... although that doesn't stop wintergreen.... hmmm I have a fun side project now!!!
Hi everyone, sorry for the delay in response; I was at work for 12 hours, unable to respond... On the other hand, I'm glad that this discussion has been revitalized...
Okay, before I post more details, I did want to address one specific post:
Now, both VFT seedling pots sit in a rectangular tupperware with several other CP pots, all tray watered... (I routinely test the rainwater that I use for watering. Always ~10 ppm.) Today I tested the water in the tupperware... ~125 ppm. I immediately emptied it, refilled it with fresh water. After 10 minutes, the tupperware water measured at ~25ppm.
So, I IMMEDIATELY removed both the dying VFT pot and the gemmae pot (that I mentioned in an earlier post), replaced the water in the tupperware for the remaining plants. The water tested ~15 ppm.
I top-watered the dying VFT pot to test the water that flushed through the soil. First rinse? A whopping ~350 ppm. I almost dropped the pot.
I did serial flushes of the pot and tested the runoff each time. It slowly went down from ~350 to ~300 to ~250 to ~95 to ~75 to ~49 to ~35.
Based on this, I think it's safe to say that it may not have been the tricho/myco themselves, but rather whatever heinous inorganics were in the powder that contained it... and I thank everyone for their posts. It probably would have taken a few more days for me to think of that on my own, at which point the remaining CPs in that tupperware might have all started dying...
As to the dying VFT pot, I've placed it (and the gemmae pot) in individual reservoirs of fresh water... It may be too late for those seedlings, but such is the price of experience... Still, I hope they pull through.
Okay, so what batch of tricho/mycor did this beginner purchase?
Well, I looked for a cheap soil inoculant on eBay that would available for purchase in a small quantity for me to try out... I don't want to name specific sellers (for any number of reasons), but I'll at least copy the text of the listing... It follows in my next post...
Last edited by jonnyq; 04-07-2011 at 06:22 PM. Reason: Removed the word "dastardly." It was meant whimsically, but could be taken as criticism of the product rather than myself...
Some places use clay as a filler. If its the same place on ebay I think it is they are very nice people and wont hesitate to answer any questions about their products. Maybe you could ask them what they use as a filler.
So, this was what the listing said:
...and it essentially came as a brown/black powder in a ziplock bag.1 ounce of Soluble Inoculant powder with free FAST shipping in the USA.
Mycorrhizal fungi, Trichoderma fungi, and 19 beneficial bacteria inoculants.
Beneficial Endo Mycorrhizal fungi species: Glomus intraradices, Glomus mosseae, Glomus aggregatum, Glomus clarum, Glomus deserticola, Glomus etunicatum, Gigaspora margarita, Gigaspora brasilianum, Gigaspora monosporum
Beneficial Ecto Mycorrhizal fungi species: Rhizopogon villosullus, Rhizopogon luteolus, Rhizopogon amylopogon, Rhizopogon fulvigleba, Pisolithus tinctorius, Laccaria bicolor, Laccaria laccata, Scleroderma cepa, Scleroderma citrinum, Suillus granulatas, Suillus punctatapies
Trichoderma species: Trichoderma harzianum, Trichoderma konigii
Beneficial bacteria: Bacillus subtillus, Bacillus licheniformis, Bacillus azotoformans, Bacillus megaterium, Bacillus coagulans, Bacillus pumlis, Bacillus thuringiensis, Bacillus stearothermiphilis, Paenibacillus polymyxa, Paenibacillus durum, Paenibacillus florescence, Paenibacillus gordonae, Azotobacter polymyxa, Azotobacter chroococcum, Sacchromyces cervisiae, Streptomyces griseues, Streptomyces lydicus, Pseudomonas aureofaceans, Deinococcus erythromyxa
This product is a powder that has a particle size of less than 220 microns. This powder is ideal for spray applications, injection systems and drip irrigation. This product makes it very eazy to get beneficial fungi, beneficial bacteria and trichoderma directly into the soil root zone of growing plants.
Mix 1 dry ounce of this product with one gallon of water and shake well. Spray or drip the mixed solution in area to be treated and follow with regular irrigation. . At this rate the product can be applied weekly. This mixture can also be used as a root dip or transplanting aid. Coverage is 150 square feet or if growing in pots this will treat approximately 125-150 plants
Store in a cool dry area.
Use product within 12 months of delivery.
1 ounce of this product will make 1 gallon of ready to use solution.
@Nan - this is where I got the bright idea to spray it into the pot...
So, it looks like my poor results may have been from inorganic salts in the powder, rather than any direct effects of tricho/myco itself.
Anyhow, I apologize for what might seem to be a tangential entry in this thread; but on the bright side it did reinvigorate the discussion, and will hopefully be of use to other beginners who were also in my position.
Thanks again, everyone! Will try to again soon with one of the more reputable tricho sources mentioned on this board...
Okay, I'm off to read some of these tricho papers...
---------- Post added at 09:20 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:16 PM ----------
Still, I think whatever filler may have been used, the inoculant from the seller I used clearly won't be usable on cps...
The same place will sell you %100 trich with no fillers. You have to contact them though.
Another issue with using mycorrhizae on seeds or cuttings is that depending on the fungus, it walks a very fine line between being symbiotic and parasitic. In many of our studies, known mycorrhizal species will actually inhibit the rooting of cuttings or wipe out batches of seed just simply due to them being an extra nutrient sink. Most larger plants can take the added burden of a few hundred fungal hyphae but many of the younger or stressed plants just can't handle it. So if you have a young or already stressed plant, the addition of mycorrhizae may do more harm than good. After you have an established plant then you can go nuts.
And my skepticism tells me that the nature of that mix, being a dry powder and containing so many different species, is that the quality rapidly degrades over time (assuming it is viable in that form anyway). I would wager that at least half of the species they boast are either no longer alive or have been replaced with some other less helpful beastie - but that's just my 2 cents.
Likewise, I read a Canadian Govt (IIRC) research paper where they mentioned that B. subtilis (sp?) and Trichoderma were found to be antagonistic toward each other.
I discussed this a few years ago with Pyro who at that time was a researcher working with B. subtilis. He said that he had a good idea of why the conflict occurred. He also thought (best I remember) that this would most likely be a strain related conflict.
So... like Edax, I am very skeptical of "everything but the kitchen sink" products
In addition, research has shown that Trichoderma is less phytopathogen aggressive while in nutrient rich environments. So as a rule I alternate my Trich and fertilizing routines biweekly...
Last edited by Av8tor1; 04-08-2011 at 09:15 AM.
Some strains harbor a gene complex (skf operon) that appears to be active under starvation/low-nutrient level conditions as a means for the Bacillus to prey on neighboring organisms. Not all strains of B. subi carry the operon however and even among those that do, not all the individuals in a culture will activate the operon. Additionally there are ways to override the prey response should the bacteria "wish" to and IMHO a symbiotic, mutualistic relationship between organisms would be one such case.
My thesis project in a nut-shell with some further extended phenotype logic applied
'My love was science- specifically biology and, more specifically, when placed in a common jar, which of two organisms would devour the other.'
See You Space Cowboy