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Thread: Exotic pet ban - HR 669 Fish, Reptiles, Birds

  1. #41
    herenorthere's Avatar
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    Pyro, where does that 36 hours come from in your last paragraph? Are you referring to the 36 months for publishing the list of acceptable species? That's too soon for the US FWS to even develop the regulations necessary for doing that. The process of promulgating regulations is very slow and the bill should say 36 months after the regulations are enacted. I still think the bill isn't that bad, as first drafts go, but would rather see them clamp down on the unintentional imports.
    Bruce in CT

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  2. #42

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    whoa I just got on this thread... and I like it!!!

    We've hit up rights vs privileges and constitutional interpretation... sweet. Personally I kind of call in question if really I have a constitutional right to keep my pythons (or even my BB gun for that matter since I'm not in a well regulated militia) but dammit I like the privilege. In fact I want to extend that privilege into an entrepreneurial venture in a few years and turn some cash on the side while I'm at it - so maybe it IS infringing on my right of pursuit of happiness (property - depending on your interpretation ).

    Look I am from South Florida, Miami in fact. Lived there from 1982 (when I was born) to lets say 2004 (the last 4 were the out of state college years). I have seen what invasive animals do. I have seen the tropical fish running rampant in the waters, I have seen the monitors, I have seen basilisks in state parks, I have seen tens of thousands of green iguanas sunning along the canals. This bill isn't going to even begin to correct that. It won't even make that issue sneeze. This is going to just put innocent people out of work, and make the rest of us criminals. If you even want to think about protecting the eco-system from invasive species this is WAY too much WAY too late.

    Hey, look at it this way, if you want to take a wacko-political approach to this (like I like to do), forget the fact that this is about, well what it's about. Think of it as just the Federal government making more government (which no one likes - too damn expensive) and taking yet more power away from the states who really should be regulating this (which really should make people mad, since we are a confederation of independent states joined in a union, or supposed to be anyway, dammit). Boo Federal government! (now that's patriotism, just ask Jefferson)

    Wacko out!
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  3. #43
    Whats it to ya? Finch's Avatar
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    The trick is regulating species that are beginning to show invasive tendencies or are known to be invasive in similar habitats elsewhere. That does not include banning all exotic species, but when this is attempted people often say "well it is not a problem in MY area" Once you notice a problem it is far too late to do anything but damage management usually. Problem is, most species on this list don't even exhibit that much, and many i bet have no data at all regarding their potential to become invasive. So yes, I will say again it is overstepping but remember early detection and prevention is the best way to fight invasives...

    As for state freedoms, I have seen state and communities enact laws limiting certain breed of dog as well as even more surprising actions to remove personal freedoms that sometimes go well beyond what the federal government does. So just because states have the freedom to act, (I know Massachusetts has done so with invasive plants. Good for them!) that does not mean they will. Too often they don't.
    that makes no logic

  4. #44
    N=R* fs fp ne fl fi fc L Pyro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by herenorthere View Post
    I still think the bill isn't that bad, as first drafts go,
    Bruce that is just it, this is not a first draft or even a second. This bill, under different numbers but the same wording, has come up numerous times and each time it makes it a little further up the chain. 669 goes before the committee for Insular Affairs, Oceans and Wildlife next week. Rough drafts do not go to committees.

    but would rather see them clamp down on the unintentional imports.
    And I never disagreed with you on that. If the bill was actually about that I would support it. But it is not. And so I do not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Finch View Post
    The trick is regulating species that are beginning to show invasive tendencies or are known to be invasive in similar habitats elsewhere.
    You make an interesting and good point here Finch and I want to comment on it. I agree with this. And so do most reptile keepers. That is why we are so angry at the crap USGS report saying pythons (specifically Burmese pythons) could make it to DC and Illinois and Nebraska. Even if you did believe that global warming would make temperatures suitable in these locations (and I have yet to see a global warming prediction that has the lows getting no lower than 55f for all those places) the habitats that these snakes need to survive would still not exist in these same areas. And the supporters of this bill ignore that simple scientific fact and the media ignores that scientific fact and so the public actually believes it.

    Another interesting example: Kenyan sand boa.

    The name enough tells you where they come from and from that it does not take much more than a two digit IQ to figure out that these animals thrive in HOT, DRY regions. And because they come from regions that are hot they have evolved to be best suited for heat. And are not suited for (wait for it... wait for it...) cold. A KSB that is exposed to temps below 50F for even short periods of time runs a significant risk of developing a respiratory infection. Expose the to temps of 40F and they begin to suffer worse problems. Subject them to freezing temps for just one night and they will die.

    So with all that in mind. The state of New Hampshire has ban KSB. Why? Because, according to those that got the ban to pass, there is sand in the state and so KSB could easily become invasive there.

    Anyone care to explain that logic??

    You cannot because there is no logic to that. Yet this is the same type of logic being used for this bill.
    'My love was science- specifically biology and, more specifically, when placed in a common jar, which of two organisms would devour the other.'

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  5. #45
    N=R* fs fp ne fl fi fc L Pyro's Avatar
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    Just something to add more meat to the conversation.

    These are the 15 (yes that is right a whole whopping 15) species that are exempt (i.e. allowed to be kept) from HR669

    1. cat (Felis catus),
    2. cattle or oxen (Bos taurus),
    3. chicken (Gallus gallus domesticus),
    4. dog (Canis lupus familiaris),
    5. donkey or *** (Equus asinus),
    6. domesticated members of the family Anatidae (geese),
    7. duck (domesticated Anas spp.),
    8. goat (Capra aegagrus hircus),
    9. goldfish (Carassius auratus auratus),
    10. horse (Equus caballus),
    11. llama (Lama glama),
    12. mule or hinny (Equus caballus x E. asinus),
    13. pig or hog (Sus scrofa domestica),
    14. domesticated varieties of rabbit (Oryctolagus cuniculus),
    15. sheep (Ovis aries)


    I can see no fewer than 4 of those that are highly destructive and currently loose in the environment. I also do not see any native species of reptile on there... But maybe I missed something...
    'My love was science- specifically biology and, more specifically, when placed in a common jar, which of two organisms would devour the other.'

    See You Space Cowboy

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  6. #46
    Got Drosera? Indiana Gardener's Avatar
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    1. cat (Felis catus),
    2. cattle or oxen (Bos taurus),
    3. chicken (Gallus gallus domesticus),
    4. dog (Canis lupus familiaris),
    5. donkey or *** (Equus asinus),
    6. domesticated members of the family Anatidae (geese),
    7. duck (domesticated Anas spp.),
    8. goat (Capra aegagrus hircus),
    9. goldfish (Carassius auratus auratus),
    10. horse (Equus caballus),
    11. llama (Lama glama),
    12. mule or hinny (Equus caballus x E. asinus),
    13. pig or hog (Sus scrofa domestica),
    14. domesticated varieties of rabbit (Oryctolagus cuniculus),
    15. sheep (Ovis aries)
    Ok, so where does this leave people here who are preserving species that are very threatened or nearly extinct in their own countries? Species like Gallus varius, Gallus sonneratii, and Gallus lafayetti? They're going to come round to preservationists and knock off endangered species that are almost gone? I know of only two G. varius breeders in the US. If they do that, it would only serve right those who carry out this horrid plan to meet the same fate.

    Good grief, not even guppies made the list!!!

    I also do not see any native species of reptile on there... But maybe I missed something...
    Their goal is to wipe out all pets. You likely won't find any native animals on the allowed list. It's already law in most (if not all?) states that licenses are required to keep any native animal in captivity. While this proposed law would wipe out nearly all "exotic" species, it is not mentioned that they will not allow you to keep native species either. At least not without a bunch of fees and red tape.

  7. #47
    N=R* fs fp ne fl fi fc L Pyro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Indiana Gardener View Post
    Their goal is to wipe out all pets. You likely won't find any native animals on the allowed list.
    Yes IG, I know. I was being sarcastic when I asked where the native reptiles were
    'My love was science- specifically biology and, more specifically, when placed in a common jar, which of two organisms would devour the other.'

    See You Space Cowboy

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  8. #48
    Got Drosera? Indiana Gardener's Avatar
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    I kind of thought so, but I wanted to mention the current laws on native wildlife for others here so that they can't say, Oh, just keep native species. Yeah, right... Good luck with that. This bill, if made law, will do nothing but attempt to make criminals out of honest people.

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