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Thread: Ebayer to avoid

  1. #41
    The Consuming Flame EdaxFlamma's Avatar
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    I think we need to just let it go and let those involved handle it. They know more than we do and there's no need for that to change. If they want to make us aware like was done with the original post of the thread they will until then they have the ball and let them keep it.
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  2. #42
    Two flies one pitcher. Minus the crap eating. obregon562's Avatar
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    Lots has been proven in the private sector. You're just not privey to the details.
    I am SO tired about hearing about the "private" sector! That just burns me! How can you guys just hide in the shadows, occasionally popping up to say "lots is going on in our netherworld you will never know"? So WHAT? Why cant the public know, when obviously more than one of you so-called-private growers can? If there is evidence, present it! You cannot accuse someone publicly, and hide the details in the shadows. That is damn near hypocritical.

    Also, we all have heard rumors of your guys' grail neps, female hamatas, floriferous villosas, whatever. While i realize you are timid to post pictures in fear of theft, do you realize what a disservice this is to our community? We could be producing TONS and TONS of very rare, endangered, and desirable plants if you guys wouldn’t mind sharing. And as far as the whole theft thing goes, i point to my first paragraph. If Dom is the only thief, and you have evidence of such (that you refuse to share...), who is there to fear? Buying a few security measures might be a pain, but it is worth it to keep your admittedly astounding plants.

    Phil, please don’t take this as an attack on you. It’s just a peeve i have. The pics i have seen of yours make me remember why i love our hobby, they are tops. I am not insulting you (directly).

    Anyway...

    Again; Tony, Sunbelle, i hope you get what was taken from you. Catch that dirt bag.
    Last edited by PlantAKiss; 04-24-2009 at 09:53 PM. Reason: Sorry...cuss edit.
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  3. #43
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    In some ways i agree with Frankie, as for as the Private side post pic's leave other details out of your profile as in LOCATION,nursery name ,etc .
    But as for the evidence side i fully understand the hush hush part as to not give these indivuals anymore info as to whats going on, do to the fact that they are more then likely lurking in "The Shadows" reading all these posts .
    Always remeber "The Greatest trick the Devil pulled was prooving He Did'nt Exsist"

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    Sarracenia Collector Adam's Avatar
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  5. #45
    The Consuming Flame EdaxFlamma's Avatar
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    This is going to be my last post on this thread.

    I think Tony was just making us aware of the person in question and letting us use our own judgment as to what we do. Personally I wouldn't want to dish out details about something like this if it happened to me. Also if things haven't been finalized there are probably some things that can't be said. Something happened, a person has been brought to our attention, make your decision, let it be and don't bring about any more unneeded attention to anyone involved.
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  6. #46
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    If I were the victim here and I couldn't get the police to conduct a real investigation, I would set about establishing a civil case - especially in a situation such as this where real, substantial financial/commerical damages can be shown.

    I would hire an investigator or find an attorney to take the case and use their investigators. I'd compile ebay auctions, forum posts, photos... all the circumstantial evidence possible. The burden of proof is much lower in civil cases, and you can get rights to conduct supervised searches, examine financial records, subpoena people for under-oath depositions, etc., etc.

    Making public accusations is probably detrimental to the goal of capturing the thief and recovering property. You don't want the thief alerted. I would only do that as a last resort if I believed I'd never be able to recover my property without breaking the law to do it.


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  7. #47
    N=R* fs fp ne fl fi fc L Pyro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by obregon562 View Post
    I am SO tired about hearing about the "private" sector! That just burns me! How can you guys just hide in the shadows, occasionally popping up to say "lots is going on in our netherworld you will never know"? So WHAT? Why cant the public know, when obviously more than one of you so-called-private growers can? If there is evidence, present it! You cannot accuse someone publicly, and hide the details in the shadows. That is damn near hypocritical.
    Quote Originally Posted by grumpus View Post
    If I were the victim here and I couldn't get the police to conduct a real investigation, I would set about establishing a civil case - especially in a situation such as this where real, substantial financial/commerical damages can be shown.

    I would hire an investigator or find an attorney to take the case and use their investigators. I'd compile ebay auctions, forum posts, photos... all the circumstantial evidence possible. The burden of proof is much lower in civil cases, and you can get rights to conduct supervised searches, examine financial records, subpoena people for under-oath depositions, etc., etc.

    Making public accusations is probably detrimental to the goal of capturing the thief and recovering property. You don't want the thief alerted. I would only do that as a last resort if I believed I'd never be able to recover my property without breaking the law to do it.
    I just wanted to address this specifically.

    Tony and the Meeks and anyone involved in "behind the scenes" have every right to keep that information quiet and honestly it is the bloody well smartest thing to do. If you think Dom is not reading these or other forums just because he is not a member here/there then you are off your rocker. Giving away your hand is just plain stupid!! If you reveal everything you have then the person accused can and likely will go to the ends of the world to cover/hide/destroy/repair whatever it is you reveal. And POOF!! There goes any chance you had. Grumpus makes some great points about this.


    Quote Originally Posted by obregon562 View Post
    Also, we all have heard rumors of your guys' grail neps, female hamatas, floriferous villosas, whatever....
    And quite seriously, what does any of this have to do with the theft perpetrated against Tony and the Meeks?? NOTHING! If you have a gripe about people keeping their "secret" plants a secret fine. But do not use Tony's warning to the community as a means to air your problems about something totally unrelated. It is rude to say the least.

    Also, for the record, the blooming villosa pictures are in every forum I can think of so it is not some hidden "rumor".

    While i realize you are timid to post pictures in fear of theft, do you realize what a disservice this is to our community?
    How many thousands of dollars of plants have you had stolen from you that you can just fob this off as inconsequential?

    We could be producing TONS and TONS of very rare, endangered, and desirable plants if you guys wouldn’t mind sharing.
    People do not mind sharing...with people they trust. The world is not all smiley happy people, there are some real and true scum out there. I have been growing for 10 years and I have met some of the greatest people and some of the worst. I have received some high praises from total strangers and been kicked in the nuts by people I thought I knew. The rare and endangered and coveted plants are being produced and will continue to be produced. But at the rate that the owners of said material are able to work with their trusted cohorts. New clones of N. clipeata will show up some day. N. edwardsiana will be passed around. Seed grown N. jamban will hit growlist. It just takes time.

    And as far as the whole theft thing goes, i point to my first paragraph. If Dom is the only thief, and you have evidence of such (that you refuse to share...), who is there to fear?
    Who said Dom is the only thief? He is just the latest of many and has made the biggest splash because of who he hit and what he took. I know plenty of people who have had plants stolen, myself included. It can happen to anyone and a new person with a total lack of morals can pop up any time. Maybe it is because my other hobby have such a vocal aspect on its scammers/thieves but to think that there is only one jerk wad in all of the CP community is naive.
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  8. #48

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    Quote Originally Posted by obregon562 View Post
    How can you guys just hide in the shadows, occasionally popping up to say "lots is going on in our netherworld you will never know"?
    Let's put it this way. In order to prevent undue chaos the community is on a need-to-know basis.

    Quote Originally Posted by obregon562 View Post
    So WHAT? Why cant the public know, when obviously more than one of you so-called-private growers can?
    Precisely what I mentioned before. Only a priveledged few are involved BECAUSE of their station in the cp community AND ability to respect the wishes of the victims by staying under cover and not treating their experience like a vehicle for gossip.

    Quote Originally Posted by obregon562 View Post
    If there is evidence, present it!
    When the victims feel the time is right they will.

    Quote Originally Posted by obregon562 View Post
    You cannot accuse someone publicly, and hide the details in the shadows. That is damn near hypocritical.
    Yes you can and..no it's not. Actually I believe this happens on a day to day basis. People are publicly accused and arrested of crimes all the time, aka "suspects"...but the details governing their guilt/innocence are reserved for the trial. We, the public, are entitled to read only snipets of what's really going on until all evidence has been presented and a verdict has been passed.

    Quote Originally Posted by obregon562 View Post
    Also, we all have heard rumors of your guys' grail neps, female hamatas, floriferous villosas, whatever. While i realize you are timid to post pictures in fear of theft, do you realize what a disservice this is to our community? We could be producing TONS and TONS of very rare, endangered, and desirable plants if you guys wouldn’t mind sharing.
    Well now there it is in a nut shell. Here's how that comment makes me feel: "Phil, you have a beautiful collection. I see you've worked DECADES creating it, obtaining it, caring for it. You've done so much for the cp community. But HOW DARE YOU keep these plants in your collection and not share them with everyone else who wants/COVETS them as well. Didn't your mother ever teach you to SHARE? We know you've done a lot to teach people. We know you've done a lot by creating new cp crosses and sharing these with the community. But all that means NOTHING if you don't share your rarest plants with the rest of us. It's not fair!"

    There's my rant. You see Frankie I do share my best and rarest plants. Ask anyone who has been on the receiving end. It's called good insurance. Do I ask for anything in return? Pretty much never, unless the product is being sold. In fact...people feel guilty most of the time because I want NOTHING in return. Yup, that's me. I GIVE more away than I keep for myself. Just because you or your circle of friends have never been the recipients of this generosity doesn't mean it has never been done or isn't currently happening.

    Like I mentioned previously, It has taken me over 30 years to get to where I am at with my collection. I was the one who put the work into it. I was the one who toiled over the maintenance of it and....footed the expense for everything. But I do NOT respond to demands to share my plants with people who haven't had like experiences or have a healthy respect for all the work I've put into it.

    These kinds of comments come off as very greedy. "Gimmie that plant you have. I want it too. Why can't I have it too? If you have it EVERYONE should have it. If you have a really rare nep you need to post pictures of it so everyone can see WHAT YOU'RE GROWING!" Why? Why can't we just accept that only a handfull of folks are growing certain species/hybrids/clones and just move on? You can't have everything. For some of us well-seasoned growers it has taken us many, many years to obtain some of the specimens we have in our collections and I am the strongest believer that photos of every plant do not need to be made public.

    Personally I don't like the idea of just handing something over right away. Why should we have to toil over years and years of hard work and searching to just make it easy for everyone else. Shouldn't we, the growers, reserve the right to distribute our rarest specimens to WHOM we feel is qualified or worthy?

    I'm not saying this is the approach you are taking...just that I too get tired. Tired of the "entitlement" people feel they have coming.

    Quote Originally Posted by obregon562 View Post
    Buying a few security measures might be a pain, but it is worth it to keep your admittedly astounding plants.
    I have plenty of security measures at hand and it has always been the PUBLIC that admits my plants are "astounding", not me. I am loathe to brag about my plants. Other people do that for me just fine. As a dear friend put it recently..."Phil is a silent big player".

    Quote Originally Posted by obregon562 View Post
    Phil, please don’t take this as an attack on you. It’s just a peeve i have. The pics i have seen of yours make me remember why i love our hobby, they are tops. I am not insulting you (directly).
    Frankie, I don't feel the least bit insulted. It's all good. No hard feelings here. I think it's good to air your opinions. That's how we all grow together..no pun intended. I appreciate the kudos...but credit always goes to my photographer. You see..there's another reason I don't post pics very often. I don't have the capability to upload photos so I must rely on a private photographer to do this for me and he only visits a few times per year.

    Grow on!

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