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Thread: Which came first?

  1. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wolfn View Post
    I don't think plants evolved to become carnivorous. I think they were created that way.

    Though there is much prehistorical evidence lacking to back up both my view and this one I believe plants evolved to become carnivorous. It's a whole mechanism that relies on prey and symbiotic relationships with bacterias in some instances. The probability that a mechanism as complex as the one we see today, would have appeared with the intent of deriving nutrients from bugs by luring, capturing, killing, digesting, and assimilating is very very very very slim if not unheard of.
    Different plants in different parts of the world evolved similar mechanisms (Sarracenia, Nepenthes, Heliamphora). These mechanisms all worked in the same manner but we can see very clearly that there is not just one proper form for a mechanism but in this case, 3 that we know of. There are even different specimens within the same genus suggesting that these plants have evolved from 1 distant common ancestor.

    There is evidence that VFTs evolved from Drosera. If two specimen can be so physically different yet come to be more closely related then we could imagine, it may be that Drosera's ancestor (or any other CP) was just as much different, even possibly non carnivorous (though there is no data or proof to back this up).

    Plants dont just appear with a plan on how they're going to survive. It's a battle of the fittest in the environment that they end up being set in and the ones that made it through the challenge of nutrient poor soil were the ones that had genetic mutations which allowed them to collect nutrients from insects in their own environment through their leaves. How many mutations it took to get to the plants we know today is a mystery but I would love to have this riddle solved sometime in my lifetime. I just simply do not agree with the theory of creationism.

  2. #10
    Californian in DC DrWurm's Avatar
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    NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

    Don't do it! Do not engage! I repeat: do not engage!

    Although I'm not sure what Halt's original intentions were for this thread, I'm pretty sure he did not ask for an evolutionism vs. creationism debate. I've seen too many similar threads hijacked by such irrelevant discussions.

    Jason

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    Not engaging at all, I hope no one takes that the wrong way. Just stating my opinion, anyone can freely agree, reject or modify my post or Wolfn's post to fit their own views.


    But ya I dont think the Cobra Plant has anything to do with a real cobra snake. :P Just one of those neat coincidences in nature Bird of paradise looks like a birds beak i think when in flower. Soooo pretty.

  4. #12
    sea bear returns! theyellowdart's Avatar
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    In the Darlingtonia section of the ICPS website it is written that the first leaves of Darlingtonia seedlings are representative of what the plant used to look like before it was carnivorous.
    http://www.carnivorousplants.org/see...rlingtonia.htm Take a look at the 3rd picture and caption down.

    In my eyes, I view Heliamphora as the most primitive carnivore. The pitchers look just like rolled up leaves, suggesting the plant used to look halfway normal (and of course, didn't catch insects). (I believe this has been suggested before, however I can't remember where I heard it.)

    There's no doubt these things have evolved to what they are now.
    Frenchy, you laid out what I was going to attempt writing perfectly.
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    Has anyone really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like?

  5. #13
    Californian in DC DrWurm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by theyellowdart View Post
    In my eyes, I view Heliamphora as the most primitive carnivore. The pitchers look just like rolled up leaves, suggesting the plant used to look halfway normal (and of course, didn't catch insects). (I believe this has been suggested before, however I can't remember where I heard it.)
    How about Brocchinia reducta? Just looks like a normal brom, but it's carnivorous. Interestingly enough, although it seems like darlingtonia are "more" carnivorous than brocchinia, they produce no digestive enzymes, while B. reducta produces at least one.

    Jason

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    I think CPs were created so that members of ICPS and people who post here don't look like idiots. Imagine telling people you're into CPs and they say you're a moron because there is no such thing. It takes a lot of foresight to anticipate that there'll be CP enthusiasts so there better be some CPs for them to be enthusiastic about.
    Bruce in CT

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  7. #15
    Two flies one pitcher. Minus the crap eating. obregon562's Avatar
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    Everyoe knows God loves CPs. Cha. Just like God loves the republican way (Sorry, i couldnt resist! )!

    I think Darlingtonia evolved from a messed up Sarracenia. Think of...maybe a psittacina hybrid. The lid almost completly covers the lid. Now imagine that lid slowly, elongates and widens to make the opening to the "mouth" somewhat like an S. minor. And that tip, the "main vein" keeps elongating. Bamn, thats the "proto-type" Darlingtonia we see as its seedling pictures. Then that keeps developing and specializing, the vein seperates into a ^ like structure and developes, and bamn, a Darlingtonia.

    As for snakes and an actual cobra, they came about from lizards without the need for legs. Most likely they burrowed and legs became an impediment.
    "It's easy to rip on cops, when you aren't the one needing saving"

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  8. #16
    "Oh, now he's a philosophizer" Baylorguy's Avatar
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    In all fairness, you just labeled Wolfn based on one sentence... and you made lots of assumptions while doing so.

    Quote Originally Posted by F R e N c H 3 z View Post
    Though there is much prehistorical evidence lacking to back up both my view and this one I believe plants evolved to become carnivorous. It's a whole mechanism that relies on prey and symbiotic relationships with bacterias in some instances. The probability that a mechanism as complex as the one we see today, would have appeared with the intent of deriving nutrients from bugs by luring, capturing, killing, digesting, and assimilating is very very very very slim if not unheard of.
    Different plants in different parts of the world evolved similar mechanisms (Sarracenia, Nepenthes, Heliamphora). These mechanisms all worked in the same manner but we can see very clearly that there is not just one proper form for a mechanism but in this case, 3 that we know of. There are even different specimens within the same genus suggesting that these plants have evolved from 1 distant common ancestor.

    There is evidence that VFTs evolved from Drosera. If two specimen can be so physically different yet come to be more closely related then we could imagine, it may be that Drosera's ancestor (or any other CP) was just as much different, even possibly non carnivorous (though there is no data or proof to back this up).

    Plants dont just appear with a plan on how they're going to survive. It's a battle of the fittest in the environment that they end up being set in and the ones that made it through the challenge of nutrient poor soil were the ones that had genetic mutations which allowed them to collect nutrients from insects in their own environment through their leaves. How many mutations it took to get to the plants we know today is a mystery but I would love to have this riddle solved sometime in my lifetime. I just simply do not agree with the theory of creationism.

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