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Thread: Single cultivar name for multiple plants

  1. #9
    N=R* fs fp ne fl fi fc L Pyro's Avatar
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    It is actually perfectly legitimate to apply cultivar names to non-clonal plants. Read the rules governing the naming of cultivars. I just did this with S. 'Alucard', various offspring from the specific cross, bred three years in a row, show the same character. So, while genetically distinct, they all fit the cultivar description and as such are all the cultivar.

    That said, I agree that just lumping all the offspring from one cross together as a cultivar (even an illegitimate one) is more than a little inappropriate. Obviously the genetic variability will give rise to many phenotypes so there can be no one description that fits all of the offspring. As Dart observed, the plant name ought to be done in " rather than '. Better still it ought to just be called "Adrian Slack x Judith Hindle"
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    Quote Originally Posted by theyellowdart View Post
    Yes, they should all be labeled with quotes instead of single apostrophes. It's pretty low of them to knowingly do that.

    I.E, S. "Judith Adrian," instead of S. 'Judith Adrian.'
    Quote Originally Posted by Pyro View Post
    It is actually perfectly legitimate to apply cultivar names to non-clonal plants. Read the rules governing the naming of cultivars. I just did this with S. 'Alucard', various offspring from the specific cross, bred three years in a row, show the same character. So, while genetically distinct, they all fit the cultivar description and as such are all the cultivar.

    That said, I agree that just lumping all the offspring from one cross together as a cultivar (even an illegitimate one) is more than a little inappropriate. Obviously the genetic variability will give rise to many phenotypes so there can be no one description that fits all of the offspring. As Dart observed, the plant name ought to be done in " rather than '. Better still it ought to just be called "Adrian Slack x Judith Hindle"

    Thanks for the feedback guys. It seems like the best idea, rather then using a grex and improperly using the hyphenations, would be to simply label these as the prodginy that arose from whichever parentage as Pyro mentioned above.

    Now the real question is: Is there anything we can do other then just express our discontent so that we stop these from entering cultivation as cultivars in case someone decides to register them? If only 1 were to be registered it would be no problem but a second form of the same the same parentage would have to be registered under a different name regardless of the phenotype as these are classified by genotype.
    I have not looked into 'Alucard, but it 'Alucard' is an example of this, no matter how similar phenotypically, no plants are ever genotypically alike and thus deserve 2 different names (though in some cases it may be nearly impossible to tell 2 apart, which is why labeling is crucial).

    In the long run, strictly using grexes not only puts a limit on the number of possible names but also sets a boundary to the collection hobby which I feel partly takes the fun out of it.

  3. #11
    Hello, I must be going... Not a Number's Avatar
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    Much ado about nothing. You people really need to get off the cultivar==single plant mindset.

    Nowhere in the description of the plants is the word cultivar used. The name should not be in single quotes unless a description has been published and also registered and accepted with the appropriate ICRA (International Cultivar Registration Authority, for carnivorous plants the ICPS). That it is in single quotes is probably just an error.

    On the same website Dana's Delight and S. readii are also in single quotes. Dana's Delight was never registered and S. readii is a natural hybrid as well as naming rules for cultivars excludes the use of Latin.

    These are common errors which even I have made from time to time.

    I see no intent to deceive rather an misunderstanding as to what constitutes a carnivorous plant cultivar. The Cultivated Plant Code (ICNP) setup by the ISHS (International Society of Horticultural Science) do not restrict cultivars to genetically identical plants (single plant). Nor do the rules restrict cultivars to hybrids:

    DO I HAVE A NEW CULTIVAR?
    You have a new cultivar and you wish to name it. First check that you do actually have a cultivar. A single plant is not a cultivar: a cultivar is a group of individual plants which collectively is distinct from any other, which is uniform in its overall appearance and which remains stable in its attributes. Do not attempt to name a cultivar until you have a number of individuals that are uniform and stable. Now convince yourself that your cultivar is really worth naming; there is no point in going through the process of naming your cultivar if it is not an improvement on others.

    There are different sorts of cultivar ranging from clones, which should be genetically identical, to tightly controlled seed-raised cultivars such as F1 hybrids. Article 2 of the Code describes some of the different kinds of cultivar.

    The only way you can check if your cultivar is new and distinct is by comparing it with existing cultivars. Your new cultivar must be distinguishable from others that exist or have existed. (emphasis mine)
    Thus there are registered cultivars that can be reproduced by seed such as Sarracenia 'Hurricane Creek Ridge', Sarracenia minor 'Okee Giant', Drosera 'Emerald's Envy', Drosera 'Charles Darwin', or Drosera 'Hawaii'.

    Always read the published description of a registered cultivar. It will usually clearly state whether or not a cultivar should be propagated only vegetatively or through tissue culture. The description will also note if a percentage of seed progeny will not maintain the cultivar's unique characteristics - in these cases only the plants that have the unique characteristics should be considered that cultivar (e.g. S. 'Hurricane Creek White' and D. 'Emerald's Envy').

    And as Clue points out, under a Grex system which takes into account the genetic heritage of plants, a Grex name applies to all the seed offspring. Both Peter D'Amato and Barry Rice are big proponents of a Grex system for Sarracenia.

    If you still have issues on the rules for cultivars I suggest you take them up with Jan Schlauer who is in charge of the ICRA for Carnivorous Plants or the ISHS. Contact information can be found below.

    Links:
    International Society of Horticultural Science ICRAs
    How to Name a Cultivar
    ICRA for Carnivorous Plants
    International Code of Nomenclature for Cultivated Plants
    "Cultivated Plant Code" or ICNCP

    Registered Cultivars of Carnivorous Plants
    Carnivorous Plant Database
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  4. #12
    N=R* fs fp ne fl fi fc L Pyro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Not a Number View Post
    Much ado about nothing. You people really need to get off the cultivar==single plant mindset.
    The Cultivated Plant Code (ICNP) setup by the ISHS (International Society of Horticultural Science) do not restrict cultivars to genetically identical plants (single plant). Nor do the rules restrict cultivars to hybrids:

    Thus there are registered cultivars that can be reproduced by seed such as Sarracenia 'Hurricane Creek Ridge', Sarracenia minor 'Okee Giant', Drosera 'Emerald's Envy', Drosera 'Charles Darwin', or Drosera 'Hawaii'.
    Always read the published description of a registered cultivar. It will usually clearly state whether or not a cultivar should be propagated only vegetatively or through tissue culture. The description will also note if a percentage of seed progeny will not maintain the cultivar's unique characteristics - in these cases only the plants that have the unique characteristics should be considered that cultivar (e.g. S. 'Hurricane Creek White' and D. 'Emerald's Envy').
    Thank you NaN, these are exactly the points I was trying to make using 'Alucard' as an example.
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  5. #13
    Cardiac Nurse JB_OrchidGuy's Avatar
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    I see both sides of the issue, but I still agree with the other guys. if its a named plant then only exact copies of that plant should be named that. Meaning clones or cuttings. But what do I know. I don't think you should have seed grown cultivars because of genetic variability. Might keep you from getting a "hurricane creek White" like I did that turns out not to meet the specifications because it was seed grown instead of cloned or cut. But again. What do I know. I'm still new and have not sat down to read much lately on plants.
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  6. #14
    Hello, I must be going... Not a Number's Avatar
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    Restricting a cultivar to a clone does not guarantee anything. Take a look at what happened with Sarracenia 'Daniel Rudd'.

    As for your bogus 'Hurricane Creek White' either somebody didn't read and/or understand the cultivar description, jumped the gun on calling the plant 'HCW' (not mature enough) or purposely intended to deceive. If the plant in question is indeed a seed offspring of genuine 'Hurricane Creek White' then you have a Sarracenia leucophylla with location data.

    Why genetically dead-end an absolutely beautiful population of Sarracenia leucophylla for people who will accept just one clone?

    I have a packet of 'Hurricane Creek White' seed from John Hummer. He says 85% will be 'Hurricane Creek White'. I'll still be very happy with the 15% that isn't. They're from John Hummer. They are Sarracenia leucophylla. They have location data.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Not a Number View Post

    Why genetically dead-end an absolutely beautiful population of Sarracenia leucophylla for people who will accept just one clone?
    I'm not understanding this...How would that be genetically isolating a population? It would simply be tagging or IDing a certain plant for it's unique looks. Isnt taxonomy basically doing the same thing by separating everything into groups? Yet these groups arent genetically isolated.

    Quote Originally Posted by Not a Number View Post
    I have a packet of 'Hurricane Creek White' seed from John Hummer. He says 85% will be 'Hurricane Creek White'. I'll still be very happy with the 15% that isn't. They're from John Hummer. They are Sarracenia leucophylla. They have location data.

    THIS is exactly what I am talking about. How can you be sure that 85% will or wont have those characteristics? There is no way anyone can know for certain what percentage will meet what description until the plants mature. A guess at these numbers would be just as good. All 100% will be great plants but you will not know what the characteristics of the plant will be until maturity. Yes you have leucophylla, yes you have location data, but to sell them or give them out as HWC is just false advertisement. If 0% of the seeds turn out to have the qualities of HWC then you would simply have leucophylla. An inexperienced grower though would just keep these labeled as HWC since that is how they received the seeds.

    I personally feel that if a plant is to be called by a name OTHER than it's parentage, then it should only be reproduced via tissue culture or division.
    This isnt to single out the stronger or better looking plants from the weak or lesser plants but simply to make references easier when these plants are brought up, be it a better looking plant or a more 'different' looking plant.

    Hurricane White Creek does not deserve a cultivar name, and should be rather considered as a form or variety of leucophylla. Prime example with the flava varieties: ornata, maxima, rubricorpora, atropurpurea etc... These are varieties, as they should be. S. 'Hugh Jampton' is just a more defined form of S. flava var. ornata and crossing two very defined plants like it does not result in some new grex simply because offsprings would exhibit these defined traits. It would simply be S. 'Hugh Jampton' x S. flava var. ornata.

    I guess I to am just TOO inexperienced on this matter. Rules as they may be though I must not fully understand them, but if I am understanding them properly then I just do not agree with them and am entitled to my opinion and 'mindset'. Whichever the case, I thank you both NaN and Pyro for explaining them in a clearer content. Hopefully this helped out more people then just myself.

  8. #16
    cp-connection's Avatar
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    OK, here's another confusing cultivar naming question. A tissue culture facility is producing a plant that they are referring to as Dionaea muscipula x 'Big Jaws'. Is this the correct nomenclature?

    If it helps, the plants that are being produced under that name are both "dente" type and "typical" type plants. My understanding is that they are from open pollinated seed from an unregistered seed-grown plant that was being casually called "Big Jaws". Is it appropriate to ever use "X" in the name of a genus with only one species?

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