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Thread: Hope and Change! woo!

  1. #17
    SDCPs's Avatar
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    "You know something is terribly wrong when the government votes to increase the deficit cap"

    -Agreed! VERY, VERY TRUE! STOP THEM BARLOR!!!

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    Celtics2008's Avatar
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    what do you out of staters know about MA politics? Brown didn't win because the people of Massachusetts don't believe in Obama, and don't want health care reform. Brown won this election because he had a better campaign than Martha did. He won by 5 % of the vote, not an overwhelming win. He won the independent's vote because our democrat governor hasn't been doing a good job, and Martha was too comfortable with her lead in the early polls and didn't campaign the way Brown did. He knows people love sports in this town so he had Curt Schilling and Doug Flutie campaigning for him. He used his daughter Ayla Brown to refute Coakley's attack ad's on abortion (brilliant on Brown's part). Brown claims to be a family man but where was his wife?! I only saw his 2 daughters, not to mention turns out he did some nude modeling in the 80's. Martha the attorney general was not fit to be a senator, she was not in touch with the lower middle class, or in touch with the politics of Washington DC. I hated both candidates to be honest, had congressman mike capuano been the demomcrat running I bet you would be complaining how the democrats have a majority in the senate. Premier Bush's war of terror got us into this debt in the first place, I believe we actually had a surplus before Bush, or at least a balanced budget after clinton. Bush's out of control spending on military put us over the edge, not to mention business model....mission accomplished in Iraq?

  3. #19
    "Oh, now he's a philosophizer" Baylorguy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celtics2008 View Post
    what do you out of staters know about MA politics? Brown won this election because he had a better campaign than Martha did. He won by 5 % of the vote, not an overwhelming win. He won the independent's vote because our democrat governor hasn't been doing a good job, and Martha was too comfortable with her lead in the early polls and didn't campaign the way Brown did. He knows people love sports in this town so he had Curt Schilling and Doug Flutie campaigning for him. He used his daughter Ayla Brown to refute Coakley's attack ad's on abortion (brilliant on Brown's part). I hated both candidates to be honest, had congressman mike capuano been the demomcrat running I bet you would be complaining how the democrats have a majority in the senate. Premier Bush's war of terror got us into this debt in the first place, I believe we actually had a surplus before Bush. Bush's out of control spending on military put us over the edge, not to mention business model....mission accomplished in Iraq?
    I don't buy the whole argument that out of staters don't have access to the same information you do about politics. You don't have an amazing revelation reserved only for the state of MA. Regardless of how it went down 5% may not be an overwhelming win, but it is a significant one. Really at this point numbers don't matter. What is overwhelming in itself is the fact that he won. A Republican has not been elected for a seat in the Senate in MA since 1972. In other words, this is a historic win and not one that should be played down by any means.

    Clinton never had a surplus that was handed off to Bush. At no point during the Clinton administration did we not have a deficit. Clinton didn't pay down the national debt; on the contrary, it increased. He paid down public debt. There is a big difference.

    Let's face it... Obama did not have a cheap start did he?

  4. #20
    Celtics2008's Avatar
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    "I don't buy the whole argument that out of staters don't have access to the same information you do about politics. You don't have an amazing revelation reserved only for the state of MA."

    You may have access to information about where Scott Brown stands on hot issues like gov't spending, war, and health care based on the internet or on national news channels like FOX or CNN, MSNBC, etc. but did you get to see all the attack ad's put on by both parties non stop? Were you solicited for votes non stop for the last 2 weeks via annotated voice msg's? Did you get the news from BOSTON based news stations who interviewed the candidates about themselves about where they grew up and the towns they live in currently?...aka how the represent the people of MA - BS both are wealthy and don't worry about forclosure, paying the bills, and getting loans to pay for their children's education. (yes Scott Brown's town of Wrentham is a bit run down, but not where he lives) (Yes martha lives in a well to do town so she doesn't have a clue about joe the plumber's problems). Did your information tell you about the 4 democrats and 2 republicans that started the race? I bet they only covered the final 2 dem vs rep. Did you know it was discovered that Brown's party had ballots already filled out for him and gave them to voters? Why is it a huge deal a republican won in MA, because we traditionally vote democrat does not mean we are always democrat (Mitt Romney?) In fact the democrats have themselves to thank for losing the public vote of confidence here (chuck turner, sal dimaisi, diane wilkerson, deval patick.. want to tell me about them?). As I said, Brown won because he had a better run campaign, it has less to do with health care reform and Obama's agenda than you think... Fact is he won independent votes and conservative democrats because he had a better campaign based on limiting gov't spending, creating jobs, increasing troops in afghanistan, AND reworking the health care bill, not killing it altogether... although fox news would have you believing differently! if you think the people of MA really are disenchanted with Obama and therefore voted Brown into the Senate because he blocks things Obama wants do you are very wrong. How about Bush's war of terror, where has that gotten us, oh yeah trillions of dollars in debt maybe, countless lives lost? Where have the golden parachutes gotten us? How about the Patriot Act, really seems that it worked at stopping richard reed, and that guy from Nigeria from getting on airplanes! I am not saying I agree with all the spending that's being done on capital hill now, nor am I saying I support everything Obama does. What I am saying is wise up if you think MA is such a raging liberal state and that Brown's win reflects what all of America thinks about Obama and his agenda. His win is really not that historic in MA more or less a deviation from the norm (lets see if we stay republican in 2 years, my guess no, although I wouldn't be surprised if a republican stayed on) and I will bet our next governor will be a republican who I'll probably vote for...just because he is a republican that won by a small margin in what has been a traditionally democratic state doesn't make it a huge historic event... Brown ran a better campaign, had a better debate, caught fire last week, and won by 5%...coakly didn't do anything to better her campaign until it was too late nor did she have the same fire or appeal to blue collar workers and business executives that Brown did. its really that simple, she tanked and wasn't a good choice for the democrats, where as Brown caught lighting in a bottle and campaigned hard in the suburbs where he needed to (yes he did win teddy's old district too).

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    "Oh, now he's a philosophizer" Baylorguy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celtics2008 View Post
    "I don't buy the whole argument that out of staters don't have access to the same information you do about politics. You don't have an amazing revelation reserved only for the state of MA."

    You may have access to information about where Scott Brown stands on hot issues like gov't spending, war, and health care based on the internet or on national news channels like FOX or CNN, MSNBC, etc. but did you get to see all the attack ad's put on by both parties non stop? Were you solicited for votes non stop for the last 2 weeks via annotated voice msg's? Did you get the news from BOSTON based news stations who interviewed the candidates about themselves about where they grew up and the towns they live in currently?...aka how the represent the people of MA - BS both are wealthy and don't worry about forclosure, paying the bills, and getting loans to pay for their children's education. (yes Scott Brown's town of Wrentham is a bit run down, but not where he lives) (Yes martha lives in a well to do town so she doesn't have a clue about joe the plumber's problems). Did your information tell you about the 4 democrats and 2 republicans that started the race? I bet they only covered the final 2 dem vs rep. Did you know it was discovered that Brown's party had ballots already filled out for him and gave them to voters? Why is it a huge deal a republican won in MA, because we traditionally vote democrat does not mean we are always democrat (Mitt Romney?) In fact the democrats have themselves to thank for losing the public vote of confidence here (chuck turner, sal dimaisi, diane wilkerson, deval patick.. want to tell me about them?). As I said, Brown won because he had a better run campaign, it has less to do with health care reform and Obama's agenda than you think... Fact is he won independent votes and conservative democrats because he had a better campaign based on limiting gov't spending, creating jobs, increasing troops in afghanistan, AND reworking the health care bill, not killing it altogether... although fox news would have you believing differently! if you think the people of MA really are disenchanted with Obama and therefore voted Brown into the Senate because he blocks things Obama wants do you are very wrong. How about Bush's war of terror, where has that gotten us, oh yeah trillions of dollars in debt maybe, countless lives lost? Where have the golden parachutes gotten us? How about the Patriot Act, really seems that it worked at stopping richard reed, and that guy from Nigeria from getting on airplanes! I am not saying I agree with all the spending that's being done on capital hill now, nor am I saying I support everything Obama does. What I am saying is wise up if you think MA is such a raging liberal state and that Brown's win reflects what all of America thinks about Obama and his agenda. His win is really not that historic in MA more or less a deviation from the norm (lets see if we stay republican in 2 years, my guess no, although I wouldn't be surprised if a republican stayed on) and I will bet our next governor will be a republican who I'll probably vote for...just because he is a republican that won by a small margin in what has been a traditionally democratic state doesn't make it a huge historic event... Brown ran a better campaign, had a better debate, caught fire last week, and won by 5%...coakly didn't do anything to better her campaign until it was too late nor did she have the same fire or appeal to blue collar workers and business executives that Brown did. its really that simple, she tanked and wasn't a good choice for the democrats, where as Brown caught lighting in a bottle and campaigned hard in the suburbs where he needed to (yes he did win teddy's old district too).
    Hopefully you will pardon me if I miss some of your post, but it is way too much of a headache to read the whole thing in the largest paragraph of all time

    Everything you said is true in that you experienced it first hand, but the general methods of campainging and election do not change... and a few college classes in polictal science will give you plenty of knowledge to understand the implications of everything you just mentioned.

    It IS historic. 1972... read it... almost 40 years. What do you define as historic?

    As to the Patriot Act and other general claims, how can you even quantify if it worked or not? The concept is not invalidated just because you throw a few instances out where it failed. Nothing is perfect.

    As to your statement of fox news. I could very easily flip it the other way and say you probably get most of your info from CNN. Truth is I read both liberal and conservative opinions and then I do fact checks. I NEVER believe ANYTHING at face value until I have given it thought.

    Phil

  6. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celtics2008 View Post
    what do you out of staters know about MA politics? Brown didn't win because the people of Massachusetts don't believe in Obama, and don't want health care reform. Brown won this election because he had a better campaign than Martha did.
    uh huh..keep telling yourself that!
    just be aware that no one really believes it..
    (and it makes no sense..Democrats will vote for a Republican just because he had "a better campaign"?? riiiiiight.)
    but if it makes you feel better, then ok..

    Scot

  7. #23
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    I was a Sociology major not a Poly Sci major...in fact I didn't take 1 poly sci course. As for CNN I never watch it, but I did take a course on the sociology of News and how EACH station distorts the truth in favor of their own agenda. In fact I usually tune out new stations except the local paper, if I do watch the News I flip between FOX boston and WBZ boston. As for the Senate seat, mind telling me how long Teddy held it, or John Kerry? It would go a long way in explaining why it has been held by democrats for so long in MA.

    My definition of Historic is something that changes the course of history for a life time, not 2 years. 9/11 was historic, the Kennedy assassination was historic, landing on the moon was historic...

    As for the Patriot Act, mind telling me instances where it has worked and protected us from harm, as opposed to the CIA doing their job both domestically and internationally pre 9/11? I do agree it was put in place for a reason after 9\11, but I'd like to know more about how it has worked in favor of intelligence\protection as opposed to dissolving so called civil liberties?

    Hey Scotty - tell me why was Jack E Robinson a better choice for conservative republicans as opposed to scott brown in the original election? Tell me why Scott Brown targeted INDEPENDENT VOTERS and DEMOCRATS ON THE FENCE? Also humor me by saying why a republican won in a so called "traditional" democratic state if democrats are supposed out weigh republicans heavily in this state? Logic would say democrats had to vote republican for Brown to win based on the voter turn out. Keep on thinking you know about MA politics...I don't pretend to know about NY politics now do I? You do realize Brown DIDN'T run on religious beliefs like other republican's have, and contrary to campaign ad's he does support abortion to an extent (he wanted emergency contraceptives to be denied based on medical personnel beliefs). He is also FOR gun control to an extent, not against. (to be 100% against gun control in MA is political suicide btw)...Seems a little too liberal if you ask me.

  8. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celtics2008 View Post
    Hey Scotty - tell me why was Jack E Robinson a better choice for conservative republicans as opposed to scott brown in the original election? Tell me why Scott Brown targeted INDEPENDENT VOTERS and DEMOCRATS ON THE FENCE? Also humor me by saying why a republican won in a so called heavily democratic state if democrats out weigh republicans heavily in this state? Logic would say democrats had to vote republican for Brown to win based on the voter turn out.
    Those are exactly my points!
    of course many democrats must have voted Republican..thats obvious.
    thats what im saying..
    My point is that it had nothing to do with "running a better campaign"..
    it had everything to do with actual Massachusetts Democrats being fed up with their own party! For a Massachusetts Democrat to actually vote Republican, things have to be REALLY bad with the way Democrats have been running things for the last year!
    to the point that Massachusetts Democrats turned on their own party!

    THAT is why he won..
    because even Democrats, in the most liberal state in history, cant stand the extreme out of control polices and direction of their own party anymore..
    that is what its all about..THAT is historic..

    If you think this has nothing to do with Obama..you're crazy..

    Scot

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