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Thread: Hope and Change! woo!

  1. #33
    scottychaos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Capslock View Post
    The people of Mass will see their mistake before long as their new Senator votes in lockstep to prevent any real change on any front.
    "Preventing change" is exactly right..and its just what the voters want and hope they will get from their new Senator..

    this will prevent the kind of change the voters didnt want,
    and was on the verge of being forced upon them against their will..
    thats what this is all about...preventing a certain type of change..the radial left "change" that was far too radical even for the most liberal state in the union..
    that really says something about the direction we were headed..

    when liberal mass democrats think its too much for even them, the fact that the agenda had gone WAY too far is simply undeniable..

    Scot

  2. #34
    --Freedom Czar-- Fryster's Avatar
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    CONGRATS MISTER BROWN!!

    Once again the American Revolutions begins in Massachusetts.

    Don't let us down brother.
    Only a moral and virtuous people are capable of freedom; the more corrupt and vicious a people becomes, the more it has need of masters. -- Benjamin Franklin

  3. #35
    "Oh, now he's a philosophizer" Baylorguy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seedjar View Post
    The pseudo-logic of this thread is astounding. Have any of you read word one about political trends? An upheaval is entirely to be expected at a time like this; we're on a cusp between conservative and liberal politics. It happens about every forty years. Any statistician worth their beans would laugh these arguments out of the room - this is not (yet) representative of any sort of trend at all. Call me when ten traditionally stagnant seats change over at the same time; that would be unusual. One is an outlier - they happen all the time.
    Why is it so mind-boggling to die-hard leftists or rightists to imagine that some people vote based on something other than the labels politicians give themselves?
    ~Joe

    PS - Er... that came out a bit rant-y. But as a mathematician, I must voice my strong objections. :/
    I don't think anyone here denies that outliers happen. This particular one had exceptional timing and its impact will likely be very strong. Not all of them will result in the same outcome nor will they have the same effect. I won't pretend to be an expert in political trends in the field of statistics but I do know an extremely noteworthy event when I see one (An event that only happens twice in one's life on average may very well be classified as noteworthy) and apparently so do millions of other people.

    Phil

  4. #36
    Celtics2008's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scottychaos View Post
    "Preventing change" is exactly right..and its just what the voters want and hope they will get from their new Senator..

    this will prevent the kind of change the voters didnt want,
    and was on the verge of being forced upon them against their will..
    thats what this is all about...preventing a certain type of change..the radial left "change" that was far too radical even for the most liberal state in the union..
    that really says something about the direction we were headed..

    when liberal mass democrats think its too much for even them, the fact that the agenda had gone WAY too far is simply undeniable..

    Scot
    Your ill informed arguments about Scott Brown and above all Massachusetts are almost comical. Surly with your wealth of knowledge about liberal MA, you would have realized Mitt Romney won MA in the primary presidential election....you have yet to answer ANY of my questions about MA politics you seem to know so well...why didn't your republicans call for less government spending while Bush was in office? Mission Accomplished in Iraq? Scott Brown was a nude model for cosmopolitan magazine in the 1980's, ALL republicans must LOVE that. Stop living in a fantasy world in which republicans have no faults! Try moving back to reality where both sides have flaws

    Geee maybe we're liberal in MA dating back to 1776 and the revolution? We wanted a separation (among other issues) between church and state you far right wing republicans seem to ignore. If you can't see the right wing extremist evangelicals getting involved in politics you are blind. Continue to be ignorant when it comes to generalizations about every so called liberal who lives in MA wanting change....It makes you seem VERY informed and convincing...By classifying MA as raging liberals you A. offend moderates like myself, B. you offend staunch republicans from MA by calling them liberal. C. you continue to ignore the simple fact our governors in the past have not all been democrat (4 of the last 5 have been republican). Maybe I'll classify all conservatives as right wing extremist evangelicals....especially new york republicans...btw if you want more liberal try your neighboring state Vermont

    If anything I agree with capslock the most...at least his arguments make sense

  5. #37
    Capslock's Avatar
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    Scot,
    I think you'll find that the voters of Massachusetts don't feel quite the way you think they do. For example, Mass. has already enacted within their state many of the health care reforms in the proposed bill - and it's wildly popular there. As a result 98% of state residents have health insurance. Further, surveys show that the economy is number on their priority list and that their dissatisfaction with the status quo is that Wall Street is taken care of but not the average guy. They have a short memory, though - the Bush administration's policies created the economic crisis, and the bailouts were substantially put in place by Bush - only Bush didn't have any restrictions or accountability with his bailouts. In fact, it is the GOP that has protected Wall Street, who argue against salary/bonus restrictions for the executives of the failed firms, and who have watered down the Health Care Bill beyond all usefulness.

    We still have an embarrassing health care insurance system in this country - the worst in the industrialize world by far. Folks like rattler don't like taxes, but for some reason don't make the connection that our health care costs are worse on his pocketbook than anything Washington can come up with. We pay almost double what every nation on earth pays for health care, yet we have 40-plus million people with NO coverage, and untold millions more with under-coverage. The leading cause of personal bankruptcy in this country is medical costs. That doesn't happen anywhere else in the world. It doesn't have to either - our system is basically a giveaway to predatory insurance companies. Our doctors are great - our health care, when it can be afforded, does not need to be fixed. How we pay for it is an international embarrassment, and the GOP notion that any reform there should be blocked is indicative of how they represent insurance companies, not Main Street. Let me share a little graphic that puts into perspective our failure in this area:



    Furthermore, I think the people of Massachusetts will start second-guessing themselves when they find out that Senator Brown is an anti-gay bigot who opposes gay marriage, that he voted against aid for 9/11 relief workers (on cost grounds, yet he was fighting for corporate subsidies and funding a golf course), that he pretends he's never heard of the Tea Party movement, and that he sponsored a legislative amendment that would have allowed medical personnel to deny emergency contraception to rape victims if it "conflicts with a sincerely held religious belief."

    This vote was a symbolic vote against the status quo - Massachusetts, far from being the most liberal state in the nation, changes parties frequently. Most of their recent governors have been Republican, for example. Voters are dissatisfied right now - and rightfully so. And Brown had the fortune of running against an incredibly weak Democratic candidate who couldn't seem to find time to campaign at all. If anything, this is a wake-up call to Democrats to stop compromising all meaningful change away, and to stop catering to Wall Street while ignoring real, regular tax payers.

    Max
    Malo Periculosam Libertatem Quam Quietum Servitium

    My photos are copyright-free and public domain

  6. #38
    Let's positive thinking! seedjar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baylorguy View Post
    I don't think anyone here denies that outliers happen. This particular one had exceptional timing and its impact will likely be very strong. Not all of them will result in the same outcome nor will they have the same effect. I won't pretend to be an expert in political trends in the field of statistics but I do know an extremely noteworthy event when I see one (An event that only happens twice in one's life on average may very well be classified as noteworthy) and apparently so do millions of other people.

    Phil
    I see what you mean here, but what's noteworthy to one has a lot to do with perspective and information sources. A 100-year flood is noteworthy to humans that rarely live longer than that, but on the scale of geological history it's a regular, even expected, event. Likewise, there are unexpected political events all the time. This one just happened to be in a jurisdiction that is in focus for most Americans, and to have obvious undertones that make for sensational media reports.

    Quote Originally Posted by rattler View Post
    in general i dont like the democrats cause they want to take my hard earned dollars that i busted my **** for.....ive got no problem helping ppl, i give thousands of dollars of my money every year to help individuals on hard times, have had to eat peanut butter sandwiches because of it before.....but i knew the money was going to those that prolly could use it more than me.....the federal government has a long and documented history of screwing things up....
    I'm never sure whether I should be distressed or relieved to see how our ideals tend to line up with one another. I kind of feel like the contrary of what you say is true, for me at least; it always seems to me that the Republican/conservative agendas are trying to "take" my money. I put that in quotes because most of the conservative policies and spending doesn't ever seem to benefit me. In the case of liberal programs - the ones that aren't totally spoiled by overreaching, that is - I am usually more comfortable with my taxes being spent because the money comes back to me, one way or another. When I think of Republican agendas, I get a long list of things that have more or less hurt America, either in the eyes of the global community or by causing infighting amongst voters. While the stuff that Democrats push is often less effective at accomplishing the intended goals, my overall impression is that they're at least conceptually and morally sound (implementations aside - I'm pretty sure corruption is just an unavoidable feature of centralized governance.)
    ~Joe
    o//~ Livin' like a bug ain't easy / My old clothes don't seem to fit me /
    I got little tiny bug feet / I don't really know what bugs eat /
    Don't want no one steppin' on me / Now I'm sympathizin' with fleas /
    Livin' like a bug ain't easy / Livin' like a bug ain't easy... o//~

  7. #39
    BigBella's Avatar
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    Elaborate graphs and statistical models aside, the planned health care bill swelled from somewhere in the neighborhood of twelve hundred pages to over twenty-five hundred; and no one in office was wiling to claim to have read it or any of its myriad earmarks. Friends of mine, both in the medical field and the law could barely decipher its language; and if the professionals were unable to understand its implications, imagine the populace at the business end of this proposed legislation.

    Brown's election is no mandate but a wholesale reaction to the opinion -- on both sides of the fence -- that government, and its steroidal increase in size and debt, is without a pilot at the helm; and some correction or balance was in order. The Massachusetts program, for all of its popular support, is tremendously costly and debt-ridden with vast administrative expenses; and I know of many who have fled the state in the last few years because they could no longer afford the exorbitant property taxes (especially if retired).

    While it may be true that the US is seen as behind many other industrial nations in terms of its health coverage, it is also quite telling that many European leaders -- when faced with serious illness -- forgo their respective country's health care coverage and flee to the Mayo Clinic or Cedars Sinai . . .
    “Sì perché l'autorità dell'opinione di mille nelle scienze non val per una scintilla di ragione di un solo . . ."

    -- Galileo "Biff" Galilei

  8. #40
    swords's Avatar
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    Actually I said under 30K - 30K would be great! I used that number cos that seems to be the cut off where they even start talking about cutting or raising taxes whenever they get out the big foam boards in congress with their pointer sticks...

    Making as little as I do I get about half of the money I pay in returned to me on a tax refund, hence what I meant by republicans hate people like me. I've heard them complaining about people like me so I know what I've heard out of their own mouths. When they essentially point at you and say "you are destroying America merely by existing and being too poor to owe as much taxes like the owner of a company does" I don't feel welcome from their side at all.

    This year my tax refund is going for all the oral cancer screenings I went through in December at a dentist and two doctors... Yeah, it's party time! LOL

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