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Thread: Hope and Change! woo!

  1. #57
    rattler's Avatar
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    on tax evasion i agree but i dont think Bill Gates should pay a higher tax rate than me just cause he makes more than a certain amount.....tax him more cause some of the products he sells are mostly made overseas? yeah ill go with that......tax the hell out of him just cause he has the money? cant agree with that.....he put in the time and the risk to build up his company, i didnt.....im all for charging the hell out of the tax evaders.....aint for taxing someone more just on the simple fact they are rich....
    cervid serial killer
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    I didn't get stimulated but he kept his promise on change, that's about all I got left!
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  2. #58
    Nepenthusiast's Avatar
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    I strongly disagree that the outcome of the MA senatorial election is unrelated to the campaign. I live in the most liberal part of MA imaginable, and a lot of would-be-Coakley-voters I know simply didn't vote out of lies she spread in her adds. This isn't some sort of revolution. The people of Massachusetts's are no more or less Republican than they used to be. We have our share of independents who voted for Ted in the past but were turned off by her negativity and political laxity. Yes, we are more Republican in that we have 1 Republican senator, but there hasn't been any major shift in the way people think.
    If you had been in the state when her adds were airing and heard what many of the most hard-core liberals had to say about her tactics and morality, you'd see that she was a very, very difficult person to trust. All she had to do to win was say "I'll continue to fight for the late Ted Kennedy's vision of Universal healthcare," and she didn't. I can't vote, but I would not have supported her even ideologically if our super-majority wasn't at stake and it didn't coincide with whether or not the democrats could implement radical healthcare reform.
    Between the loss of the super majority, the democrat's squabbling amongst themselves, and Obama's tendency towards compromise and bipartisanship, it looks like whatever we get, it's not what we were promised.
    What an un-CP like first post after my ~1 year of silence. Hi Terra forums!

  3. #59
    Formerly pond boy Ngantnier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rattler View Post
    you want to create jobs? the answer isnt taxing the crap out of rich ppl.....the rich ppl will just leave the country....the answer is to tax the crap out of imported goods.....make it so the junk from China isnt the cheapest stuff.....it forces competition and allows companies in the US a chance to compete.....US employers cant compete with the Chinese near slave labor.....thats why most the crap that used to be made in the US is now made in china.....they can pay chinese workers a fraction of what they can pay an American......so tax the crap out of the imports and drop the taxes on employers that set up shop 100% within the US....taxing the crap out of the rich will just force more jobs out of the country.....its a theory that doesnt work.....

    BTW all those frivolous things the rich buy that you complain about.....takes ppl to make those things, it takes jobs to make those things, it takes jobs to sell those things to the rich......the rich guy in the huge freaking house is often paying a landscaper or two, they are paying ppl to clean their house they are paying ppl to wash their cars, they are paying ppl to do all the things they dont want to do......guess what? if that house is on US soil those are jobs......

    not everyone is going to succeed, its just the way it is......the sooner you come to grips with that fact the better, life aint fair, its never going to be fair, sit and complain about it or do what you need to do to carve out a piece of your own.....things wouldnt be so bad if individuals didnt insist on living outside their means....i wanted a TV for my bedroom, i didnt go put a 27 inch flat screen on a credit card, i went down to the pawn shop and handed over $60 cash for a 18 inch regular old TV.....alot of the ppl i see around here complaining they are on hard times bought a house costing twice what mine did, have TV's in most rooms of their houses usually new flatscreens, one in every kids bedroom, satellite TV with all the channels, 2008 or newer vehicles in the driveway, usually 2 of them plus something for the teenager(s)......and now complain cause they are a hundred thousand dollars in debt.....i aint even close to that and i bought a house 3 years ago.....cheap credit and idiots living on it until now has more to do with the sad state of affairs than rich ppl.....

    i hate ppl that whine about rich ppl.....dammit i want to be one and i know for a fact whining aint going to get me there, infact whining is whats gonna keep me from it.....
    This is why terraforums needs a "like" button like facebook! Awesome post, I totally agree!

  4. #60
    scottychaos's Avatar
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    Its seems to me that most people in favor of "taxing the rich" do not consider themselves personally in the "rich" catagory, and therefore are excempt from their own decree..

    but who sets the "line" between "rich" and "not rich"?

    perhaps "taxing the rich" was another factor in Mass..after all, Mass democrats are among the richest democrats..When liberals in Washington say "tax the rich" they were talking about many in their own party..

    Its all well and good to say "tax the rich" as long you arent the one being taxed..
    as soon as the taxes apply to you personally, most people change their tune..

    its really just hypocrisy.."Tax the Rich..as long as thats not ME."

    they can come for you too, no matter how much you make...and they will if they arent stopped..
    because there will always be someone poorer than you..and there will always be someone who thinks its "not fair" that YOU, yes you, makes more money than someone else..so we need to take more our YOUR money..yes you..and give it to people poorer than you..because its only fair right??

    Thats communism..that mindset has to be stopped..and the Mass election was a small step in the right direction.

    Scot

  5. #61
    Capslock's Avatar
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    The most prosperous times in American history were marked by a far, far higher marginal tax rate for the rich. In the fifties and sixties, the super-rich paid as much as 90%! (you had to be real rich for that)

    It didn't do any of the bad things that some people here fear (I'm looking at you, rattler). What it did was spread the wealth a bit and subsequently we had a thriving middle class, great schools, and public services. It made an atmosphere in which people had a little money to spend - our economy is in the crapper right now because nobody can afford to pay for anything. Businesses don't have customers. But, ironically, the rich just keep getting richer and richer. The only other time we had this big an income disparity between rich and poor was in the great depression. It is not healthy - we need to stop thinking that you can get rich with lower taxes. YOU CANNOT.

    In fact, if you look around the world, the most prosperous countries (and some are surprised to find out it's not us) have uniformly higher tax rates than we do. Of course, in return, everyone has health care, everyone get a good education, and everyone has access to robust public services. Denmark, one of these "socialist" countries, produces more millionaires per capita than any nation on earth. Rich people do not leave such places because they are better to live in than a country where you can get super rich, but must live among impoverished people. Additionally, creating a huge underclass the way we have means you have more crime, more hopelessness, and more people just giving up rather than making an unworkable wage for a soul-less corporation. You want a vision of no regulation, low taxes for the rich, and underfunded services? Go visit Calcutta.

    Unlike some liberals, I personally am a staunch capitalist. I've run my own businesses since college, and I've succeeded in getting rich. I'm a CEO. I've employed a lot of people for a long time at high salaries. I'm not some free-loading lazy bum who's looking for a handout. I have three homes, a boat, and plenty of money. But I have a tiny fraction of what a lot of these crazy CEOs we see on TV make. They make more in one bonus than I"ll see in my lifetime. And we're going to protect THEM from higher taxes? I'm begging you - tax the rich. Tax ME more. It is vital for the health of our society, for our economy, for your kids' futures. Don't believe the hype. You have a better chance of getting rich in an economy where the rich are taxed more. It may be counter intuitive, but the more the schools decline, the lower the median income gets, the more people are struggling to make ends meet, the worse everyone's opportunities get. It is not healthy to aggregate wealth in the hands of an elite few. That's what happened before the Great Depression, and it's been happening now. Stop worrying about the rich! We're rich already! Worry about the family that's struggling down the street. They are the future - and their kids will either end up in universities or in prisons based on the decisions we make today. Worry about them, not Bill Gates. Bill Gates doesn't give a damn about his tax rate - I guarantee you.
    Malo Periculosam Libertatem Quam Quietum Servitium

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  6. #62
    "Oh, now he's a philosophizer" Baylorguy's Avatar
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    answer is to tax the crap out of imported goods.....make it so the junk from China isnt the cheapest stuff.....it forces competition and allows companies in the US a chance to compete.....US employers cant compete with the Chinese near slave labor.....thats why most the crap that used to be made in the US is now made in china.....they can pay chinese workers a fraction of what they can pay an American......so tax the crap out of the imports and drop the taxes on employers that set up shop 100% within the US....taxing the crap out of the rich will just force more jobs out of the country.....its a theory that doesnt work.....
    What kind of a time frame are we talking here in terms of effectiveness and positive change? It's a great idea, but how do you think China would react to drastic trade protectionism at this point? We owe them billions and billions of dollars and we use debt funded by China every year just to keep this country running. I like your idea, but given the current financial situation we are in we cannot afford such a drastic measure.

    Phil

    ---------- Post added at 12:14 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:09 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Capslock View Post
    The most prosperous times in American history were marked by a far, far higher marginal tax rate for the rich. In the fifties and sixties, the super-rich paid as much as 90%! (you had to be real rich for that)

    It didn't do any of the bad things that some people here fear (I'm looking at you, rattler). What it did was spread the wealth a bit and subsequently we had a thriving middle class, great schools, and public services. It made an atmosphere in which people had a little money to spend - our economy is in the crapper right now because nobody can afford to pay for anything. Businesses don't have customers. But, ironically, the rich just keep getting richer and richer. The only other time we had this big an income disparity between rich and poor was in the great depression. It is not healthy - we need to stop thinking that you can get rich with lower taxes. YOU CANNOT.

    In fact, if you look around the world, the most prosperous countries (and some are surprised to find out it's not us) have uniformly higher tax rates than we do. Of course, in return, everyone has health care, everyone get a good education, and everyone has access to robust public services. Denmark, one of these "socialist" countries, produces more millionaires per capita than any nation on earth. Rich people do not leave such places because they are better to live in than a country where you can get super rich, but must live among impoverished people. Additionally, creating a huge underclass the way we have means you have more crime, more hopelessness, and more people just giving up rather than making an unworkable wage for a soul-less corporation. You want a vision of no regulation, low taxes for the rich, and underfunded services? Go visit Calcutta.

    Unlike some liberals, I personally am a staunch capitalist. I've run my own businesses since college, and I've succeeded in getting rich. I'm a CEO. I've employed a lot of people for a long time at high salaries. I'm not some free-loading lazy bum who's looking for a handout. I have three homes, a boat, and plenty of money. But I have a tiny fraction of what a lot of these crazy CEOs we see on TV make. They make more in one bonus than I"ll see in my lifetime. And we're going to protect THEM from higher taxes? I'm begging you - tax the rich. Tax ME more. It is vital for the health of our society, for our economy, for your kids' futures. Don't believe the hype. You have a better chance of getting rich in an economy where the rich are taxed more. It may be counter intuitive, but the more the schools decline, the lower the median income gets, the more people are struggling to make ends meet, the worse everyone's opportunities get. It is not healthy to aggregate wealth in the hands of an elite few. That's what happened before the Great Depression, and it's been happening now. Stop worrying about the rich! We're rich already! Worry about the family that's struggling down the street. They are the future - and their kids will either end up in universities or in prisons based on the decisions we make today. Worry about them, not Bill Gates. Bill Gates doesn't give a damn about his tax rate - I guarantee you.
    I respect your take on the salaries and bonuses of CEOs. I am currently working on my MBA and I had a project last year based on bonus and incentive structures of CEOs. There are multiple CEOs that are pulling in millions per year on bonuses alone. The particluar CEO that I used was making approximately 18.7 million per year. Needless to say the section in my report dedicated to my opinion was not pretty.

  7. #63
    Illinois droseraguy's Avatar
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    Holy Crap, how did I miss this thread ! Well I have to inject my thoughts and opinions here as well I suppose. Take them for what they're worth (free). I get so sick and tired of the only choice we have to vote for is the one that is the lesser of 2 evils. That is how I see the MA election results. What happens now will probably be business as usual once he gets settled into office. A 2 party system only succeeds in keeping the majority opinion down due to the fact I don't believe there are 45% Dems and 45% Reps. That would only leave 10% of the people with a real thoughtful opinion. Dems. rely on votes bought with public funding of one sort or another and the promise of equality. Reps. rely on votes bought with tax breaks and the promise of "freedom".

    Here are a couple independent thoughts that I wonder if anyone might agree with. In no certain order.

    1- I want and like to work hard for money to provide for my family.
    1A- If my grandparents worked hard to get ahead then let them tell us where their money should go. Repeal estate taxes.
    2- I want to keep the money I earned to be spent as I see fit for my family.
    3- I want my kids to have a real unbiased education that doesn't favor one way or the other (creation / evolution etc...).
    4- I want my neighbor to have the right to believe that Nepenthes are the food of the gods and are to be worshiped on 3rd Tuesday of Neptune. I'll worry about my own household. If he wants to tell me about it every time I'm outside that's his right, I'll move if it really bugs me.
    5- Someone is always a victim. Help them back on their feet and move on.If they are a victim again provide more help and better education. 3rd time around what the heck ! There is a limit to the publics generosity.
    6- The bankers/lawyers/candlestick makers that make a hole crap load of money need to reigned in. Not sure how but with a lot of smart people out there I'm sure we can figure something out. Yes they have a right to make a bunch of money but when the workers under them are struggling the people should not have to be told to help out. Granted greed and stupidity are alive and well, we may need to pass a common courtesy law.
    7- Politicians need to have term limits that are geared toward public service instead of keeping the pork flowing home.
    8- Lobbyists have no rights and the count of 10 clear out and quit mucking up the place. After the 10 count the remainder will be allowed to help there constituents by working in a food line back home.
    9- I accept you right to say I'm an idiot, just don't start with my kids until they are old enough to form opinions of their own. Just because I don't agree with your progressive ideas doesn't mean we can't have a decent conversation.
    10- The term "Black Project" needs to be a thing of the past. Secret ok, hush hush better. Either way the President and Congress should be held responsible for ALL that we do in the dark of the night.
    11- Health care should be affordable for everyone. Varying degrees of service should be available for purchase through our employer or if I like my own then give me all that money the company didn't spend on my healthcare so I can get my own. Young people need help 20's, Old people need help 60's + and the handicapped also need some special privileges. Medicare works just get rid of the fraud !!!! COMPETENT oversight might be required ?
    12- Frivolous lawsuits need to be done away with. (Google - Kankakee School and Taser) There are people without common sense in this world, fine them but don't make me pay for their stupidity.
    13- Clarity in our Govt. processes. Who really understands what goes on and wants to get in the middle of the monkey pile.
    14- Take my money for the benefit of the whole (taxes) but don't use it in an obvious way that goes against what I believe. There are plenty of special interest groups that can provide services to those in need. This works both ways here guys, I won't force the 6000 year old earth theory to be taught along side geology.
    15- Discrimination has been gradually been dying out (literally), the next generation is better than the last and so on. Our kids should be pretty well adjusted.
    16- Our southern border has no real purpose other than to cause enmity between 2 hard working countries. It's not like the thing works anyhow. Let's collect taxes via work visas and stop the madness. Oh ya, your gonna have to pay more for sweet corn and strawberries in Dec. just a warning.
    17- Legalize the devil weed. We can collect taxes, maybe drop some expensive treatment meds. that big pharma is pushing and save some mules lives. Just the increase in the snack industry will provide more jobs for US workers.
    18- Weed out corruption, nepotism, lazyism, egoism, and idiotism from Illinois Govt. then work towards Washington and then to our southern border friends.
    19 - A new day is coming for those that choose to participate. Those that don't well, sorry but we'll cross that bridge when we get to it.
    Only two defining forces have ever offered to die for you, Jesus Christ and The American G. I. One died for your soul, the other for your freedom.
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  8. #64
    rattler's Avatar
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    Capslock.....your missing a major point....in the 50's when that was happening a huge portion of goods were made in the US.....it aint that now so "taxing the rich" now isnt gonna have the same effect, you just gonna push more jobs over seas where they can have a worker make the product for $10 a day instead of $10 an hour......push comes to shove the rich, companies hell you and me just care about their profit margines....how can i make the most off this product, how can i make the most money with the least amount of work, how can i get the best benefits.....wanna change stuff? make it in the businesses best interest for their bottom line to hire Americans and not Chinese....you add jobs, you add tax base cause ppl have jobs, you create a bigger demand for products cause ppl have jobs and can buy them.....that makes sense.....taxing someone all to hell just cause they have the money doesnt, cause they will just say screw it and leave cause guess what? they have the money to do it....they leave, set up shop in China and just pay whatever taxes there are to sell the goods in this country and continue making themselves rich living in Hong Kong or Macao....

    What kind of a time frame are we talking here in terms of effectiveness and positive change? It's a great idea, but how do you think China would react to drastic trade protectionism at this point? We owe them billions and billions of dollars and we use debt funded by China every year just to keep this country running. I like your idea, but given the current financial situation we are in we cannot afford such a drastic measure.
    given our current situation i cant see how we cant.....continue sending more jobs to China aint gonna get us farther ahead, just gonna keep digging the hole deeper....dont care if they like it, tax the hell out of their goods and pay them back with their own money......gonna take awhile for production in the US to get going 3-5 years atleast......even adding a decent import tax there arent any TV's made in the US so we are gonna have to get them from somewhere till manufacturing here meets the demand.....if they dont like it, tough, its what we need to do as a country to survive.....

    if you dont do something along these lines soon something drastic is going to happen cause those of us up here in Montana aint gonna be happy bout having to foot the bill for the IOU's California decided to pay some of its bills with this year....we run a balanced budget up here and cut funding when we dont have the money, not pay with IOU's and keep going like nothing is wrong....we are more than capable of taking care of ourselves up here.....suggest others start doing the same....
    cervid serial killer
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    I didn't get stimulated but he kept his promise on change, that's about all I got left!
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