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Just Bought This Stuff....

  • Thread starter jimscott
  • Start date

jimscott

Tropical Fish Enthusiast
Should I amend the instructions?

Picture.jpg
 
The general concentration for a neem oil solution is 0.9% oil -- the balance being pure water. I have never used soap . . .
 
Dish soap will break up oils (which is a good thing to know if you ever have a grease stain on your clothes!). So I don't think the two together will really work out...
 
Soap is used as a wetting agent for oils. I use stuff called coco wet, but have heard of soap being used too. It helps keep the oil from clumping/pooling and helps it stick to the plant surface and not just roll right off. I have used Einstiein oil neem which is 100% cold pressed neem (no other additives) and coco wet with great results. Jimscott I would be a little weary about that neem as it seams to have other ingredients other then just neem. Those could be harmfull to your CP's. I have heard a few other members here have used it so it might be just fine. You may alos have an issue with the soap containing other ingredients that may be harmful to CP's. I have only had experience with the coco wet and Einstiein oil.
 
I don;t get it... You gonna mix those 2? Or you wanna clean the spray bottle with that soap after using the neem oil? I don;t think mixing those two would work... if I remember correctly theres a soaptree fruit which works like soap, call "Sapindus"
 
the neem oil is non-polar. the soap happens to be both polar and non-polar, so using the soap allows him to mix the oil with water. instead of it repelling.
 
ohh! That makes perfect sense! Does the neem oil concentrate not already contain a surfactant?
 
lol i dont know, im a sophmore in highschool and i was just applying some chem stuff i learned this year.
 
Typically they don't. In my case the neem oil I use is nothing but neem oil, no other additives. It is possible that some of the other ingredients are used as a wetting agent. You may also get neems with the wetting agent added. Again I have not had any experience with different oils. I have only ever used coco wet and Einstiein oil with great results!


ohh! That makes perfect sense! Does the neem oil concentrate not already contain a surfactant?
 
  • #10
ah, gotcha :D well you taught this science grad student something today!

It kinda seems to me that if you're going to sell a bottle of concentrate for the neem, you would add something to the concentrate solution that would do the same sort of thing as the dish soap. I'm willing to bet somewhere in that list of inactive ingredients is something that will do the job already. ???
 
  • #11
soap is pretty crazy. nice little experiment: dish of milk, add some food coloring drops around the edge. then add drop of soap and it shoots the food coloring around the perimeter. man i love chemistry.
 
  • #12
ah, gotcha :D well you taught this science grad student something today!

It kinda seems to me that if you're going to sell a bottle of concentrate for the neem, you would add something to the concentrate solution that would do the same sort of thing as the dish soap. I'm willing to bet somewhere in that list of inactive ingredients is something that will do the job already. ???

You are correct there may be some wetting agents in there. Most of the time inactive ingredients are just cheap fillers. This way the company can produce the same volume as the market but for cheaper. Sometime the inactive ingredients can be some nasty stuff. You also have to consider the fact that the added wetting agent might not work as well as a after market wetting agent.

soap is pretty crazy. nice little experiment: dish of milk, add some food coloring drops around the edge. then add drop of soap and it shoots the food coloring around the perimeter. man i love chemistry.

That has to do with the surface tension of water and what soap does to change the surface tension. Pretty cool stuff, and the whole reason you can blow bubbles with soap and water and not just water. Also the reason soap works as a wetting agent. It changes the surface tension of water and allows it to mix with oil instead of repel it.
 
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  • #13
I have used that neem oil for over a year now and have never used soap and it is still better than what I used to use. I just make sure to remember to shake the spray bottle as I go to keep it mixed up. but I do that with anything I mix up :p
 
  • #14
@frill. to be more specific, it changes the water's polarity, and in turn that is what changes the surface tension.
 
  • #15
Correct! I was just putting it in laymen's terms so everyone would understand it.

@frill. to be more specific, it changes the water's polarity, and in turn that is what changes the surface tension.
 
  • #16
I was googling neem oil and came across a few interesting, scattered posts and links:

Neem Extract as an Insecticide

In India mainly, but also Asia and Africa, grows a tree all plant enthusiasts should be aware of, Azadirachta indica, commonly known as the "neem" tree, and a relative of mahogany. Extracts from the tree’s seeds contain azadirachtin, a relatively safe and effective naturally occurring organic insecticide. Let me preface the comments following, by reminding you that the terms "naturally occurring and/or organic" do not universally mean safe. Pyrethrums, rotenone, and even the very dangerous nicotine are all organic insecticides that should be handled with great caution. Neem extracts, on the other hand are very safely used in a wide variety of cosmetics, as a topical treatment for minor wounds, as an insecticide in grain storage containers, bins, and bags, and a whole host of other applications, and have extremely low mammalian toxicity. I'll limit this discussion to its use as an insecticide.
Neem works in many ways. It is effective both in topical and a systemic applications. It is an anti-feedant, an oviposition deterrent (anti-egg laying), a growth inhibitor, a mating disrupter, and a chemosterilizer. Azadirachtin, a tetranortriterpenoid compound, closely mimics the hormone Edison, which is necessary for reproduction in insects. When present, it takes the place of the real hormone and thus disrupts not only the feeding process, but the metamorphic transition as well, disrupting molting. It interferes with the formation of chitin (insect "skin") and stops pupation in larvae, thus short-circuiting the insect life cycle. It also inhibits flight ability, helping stop insect spread geographically

Tests have shown that azadirachtin is effective in some cases at concentrations as low as 1 ppm, but some producers use alcohol in the extraction of neem oil from plant parts which causes the azadirachtin to be removed from the oil. Some products touting neem oil as an ingredient actually have no measurable amounts of azadiractin. I use what is referred to either as cold pressed or virgin neem oil. You may also occasionally find it referred to as "raw" neem or "crude" neem oil.

Neem oil is most often used in an aqueous (water) suspension as a foliar spray or soil drench. Commonly, it is diluted to about a .5 to 2% solution, but the suggested ratio for use in container plant culture is 1 tsp. per quart of warm water. A drop or two of dish soap (castile or olive oil soap is best) helps keep the oil emulsified. The mixture is then applied as a mist to all leaf and bark surfaces and as a soil drench to the tree's root system. It should not be applied as a foliar spray on hot days or in bright sun as leaf burn may occur. Remember to agitate the container frequently as you apply and do not mix anymore than you will use in one day. Neem breaks down rapidly in water and/ or sunlight.
Some users of insecticides feel the need to observe the instant results of their efforts in order to be convinced of the effectiveness of what they are using. The application of neem derivatives does not provide this immediate gratification. There is virtually no knockdown (instant death) factor associated with its use. Insects ingesting or contacting neem usually take about 3 - 14 days to die. Its greatest benefit; however, is in preventing the occurrence of future generations. It is also interesting to note that in studies it was found that when doses were given, purposefully insufficient to cause death or complete disruption of the metamorphic cycle, up to 30 surviving generations showed virtually no resistance/ immunity to normal lethal doses, so it appears that insects build no ‘resistance’ to azadiractin.

I have been using neem oil for five years as both a preventative and fixative and have had no insect problems on my container plants. Applications of cold-pressed neem oil are most effective for use on mites, whitefly, aphids, thrips, fungus gnats, caterpillars, beetles, mealy bugs, leaf miners, g-moth, and others. It seems to be fairly specific in attacking insects with piercing or rasping mouth parts. Since these are the pests that feed on plant tissues, they are our main target species. Unless beneficial like spiders, lady beetles, certain wasps, etc., come in direct contact with spray, it does little to diminish their numbers.
Neem oil does have an odor that might be described as similar to that of an old onion, so you may wish to test it first, if you intend to use it indoors. I've found the odor dissipates in a day or two. As always, read and follow label instructions carefully.
Neem oil can be purchased from many net or local sources. My favorite brand is Dyna-Gro pure, cold-pressed neem oil. If you have trouble locating a source, you can contact me via the forum or directly.

http://http://www.discoverneem.com/neem-oil-insecticide.html

http://http://www.growsundews.com/neem_oil.html

---------- Post added at 08:35 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:31 AM ----------

I haven't done anything with it yet, other than look at the ingredients and instructions. It does not mention having any azadirachtin. So I'm not sure how effective it will be for aphids. I have no idea how to obtain azadirachtin (yet), either. I can easily try it on a capensis first.

Andrew, did you follow the recipe as listed in the instructions or did you dilute it? Did you spray the leaves only or not at all and/or the soil?

---------- Post added at 08:50 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:35 AM ----------

I just googled Green Light and found their website. I then asked them right out, in an Email about azadirachtin, dish soap, and dosage for CP's.
 
  • #17
This is what I wrote:

I would like to use your Neem Concentrate for
eradicating aphids on carnivorous plants. I did some research online and
learned two things about the use of neem oil. One is that it is
recommended that I mix a drop or two of dish soap (without additives)to
the solution. The other is that the important ingredient in neem oil is
azadirachtin. I do not see azadirachtin listed among the ingredients. Is
it in there, under "other ingredients"? Should I dilute the solution for
carnivorous plants?


Hi Scott,

Thanks for using and thinking of Green Light Products. You ask some
very good questions about Neem oil.

Azadiractin is a component in Green Light Neem oil but we make no claims
to the amount in our Neem oil. This is a strategy because the content
of azadiractin can vary. When you put an amount on the label you must
make sure you meet that as a minimum requirement.

I recommend you do not add dish soap or anything else to Neem oil. It
is preformulated with the correct amount of surfactant. Neem oil, when
used incorrectly, can cause some injury to plants. Adding dish soap or
other surfactants can increase the chance of injury to plants.
Personally I have no experience with Neem oil on carnivorous plants.
But I find this very interesting.

Neem oil will control aphids. After application you may see some aphids
but they don't feed much. After two applications you should see good
control.

Again thanks for using Green Light products.

Rene Scoresby
Green Light

I'm not making the solution until Andrew gets back to me about the recipe. I know CP's are more sensitive that typical houseplants. The dish soap I bought, though, goes back. That was 3 bucks!
 
  • #18
I have used Green Light neem concentrate to spray *all* of my nepenthes according to the mix instructions on the bottle: 2tbsp neem concentrate/1gallon water (R.O.) and nothing else. To name a few nepenthes that I used it on and they didn't look bad at all: newly potted up N.macrophylla, sickly N.sibuXhamata with a horrible infestation of thrips, & unrooted N.spectabilis basal.

I used it in a spray bottle to drench the leaves and the potting mix until it was running through the pots, and didn't run pure R.O. water after (I just left it in the soil for weeks at a time).
 
  • #19
In India mainly, but also Asia and Africa, grows a tree all plant enthusiasts should be aware of, Azadirachta indica, commonly known as the "neem" tree, and a relative of mahogany.

Okay, so now I can place the vaguely familiar scent of Neem oil - mahogany!
 
  • #20
This is what I wrote:

I would like to use your Neem Concentrate for
eradicating aphids on carnivorous plants. I did some research online and
learned two things about the use of neem oil. One is that it is
recommended that I mix a drop or two of dish soap (without additives)to
the solution. The other is that the important ingredient in neem oil is
azadirachtin. I do not see azadirachtin listed among the ingredients. Is
it in there, under "other ingredients"? Should I dilute the solution for
carnivorous plants?




I'm not making the solution until Andrew gets back to me about the recipe. I know CP's are more sensitive that typical houseplants. The dish soap I bought, though, goes back. That was 3 bucks!

One reason they might not have it labeled is due to their process of extracting the neem oil from the tree. As stated in your previous post if they are using alcohol for the process they my be removing it, hence the inability to controll the amount of azadirachtin. Again I use ONLY cold pressed neem oil. The main reason is that it ONLY contains neem, but now I have found another with the azadirachtin content.

I have always want to get a neem tree and grow it as the tree acts as a insect repelent too! I have used neem dog shampoo and neem toothpaste too! Just amazing the benefits this tree has!
 
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