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Thread: Breeding, Hybrids & Propagation of Typ VFT's

  1. #1
    Not Growing Up! GrowinOld's Avatar
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    Breeding, Hybrids & Propagation of Typ VFT's

    I had gotten a death cube this summer with "Typ" VFT's inside. When I grew them out, there was one that turned out to be "dentate"!
    [IMG]Dentate[/IMG]

    I didn't know that could occur from a mass of TC VFT's like this, as it was in the middle of a group of a half dozen teeny-tiny plants, overall no bigger than the size of a dime altogether. Any ideas on how this occurred?

    As I have had this happen, I started to wonder which (if any) VFT's come true from seed and which do not.
    Like B-52, apparently the seed will not produce more B-52's. I do know about other plants, when a cross is made, a hybrid forms from the seed. However I don't know what 2 types of VFT gave the first B-52. So many VFT's are just considered "Typicals", yet there seems to be some variations in the plants "genetic line" that don't show up until a "fortuitous" cross is made.
    Am I seeing this right, or not?

    It seems that unless plants are propagated via cuttings/cloning, they could be ANYTHING!

    Does anyone have any idea where I can find a list of VFT types that DO come "true" from seed and the ones that do NOT? It seems from the way things are going, that everything that isn't a "Typical" trait, is recessive, and doesn't pass along except occasionally.
    That would be a good excuse for all the "Typ. VFT's around, even with all the crosses being made.
    Cloning is one thing, but we are referring to actual breeding crosses of different parents!

    (It is kind of like having the parents in my entire neighborhood give birth to nearly identical children! Quite an unusual thing to have happen! But that is exactly what seems to be going on when it comes to Typ. VFT's!)

    Any thoughts on this subject (well, any intelligent thoughts) welcome!

    [I have limited addressing this subject to VFT's, as there are so many hybrids around for Sarrs, that I thought it would only confuse things further.]
    Experience is the best teacher. At least it used to be.
    But then, common sense isn't so common anymore, is it.


    http://www.terraforums.com/forums/sh...d.php?t=113866

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    Hello, I must be going... Not a Number's Avatar
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    'Dentate Traps' have been in mass tissue culture for years can be found for sale in garden centers. The "toothed" clones often grow "normal" cilia in the early part of the growing season and don't grow their signature "teeth" until later. Sometimes they'll go an entire growing season with "normal" teeth.

    It's possible that all the plants in the pot are 'Dentate Traps'. It's also possible that the worker (probably at minimum wage) took remainders that would have been otherwise discarded from several different batches to fill their quota of pots/trays. completed.
    Grand Hotel... always the same. People come, people go. Nothing ever happens.

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    Not Growing Up! GrowinOld's Avatar
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    Thanks for the thoughts NaN.
    As for this portion of my post, I suppose it is possible that what you say might have occurred, however it seems strange that only this one plant amongst the entire group exhibited the trait.

    The plant that is showing "Dentate" traits was one that was near the center of a tiny group of tangled plants, the whole thing no bigger than a dime. There was a larger plant in the group, which I assume was the fastest growing one of the group. (With TC, instead of receiving only one plant, I am used to getting a small group of plants with one or two grown out further, showing that they took a clump of TC growths and placed a portion into a pot or try to grow out.

    It strikes me as unusual however, as the "different plant" was not appearing to be a straggler, but was near center of the mass of the smaller plants. Each plant no more than a few leaves each when I got them.(Only the larger one of the batch was more developed.)

    I just find it weird that for such a small micro-sized batch, one of them in the near center of the batch ended up being different.
    For TC, having a different type of "VFT tissue cell" amongst all the others seems just plain wierd to me. Its not like they start each individual VFT cell that starts, and then gather a bunch of these individual cells in a spoon to then dump into a pot. I thought the cells were TC'd in mass, and then groups broken off and placed in pots to grow out further. If that is the case, the Dentate cell would have to have made its way into the batch early on.

    Not very good lab procedures if it is possible to actually grab a cell from another type of plant (with a dirty scapel of Dentate cells) and use it to take cells from typical vfts for culturing.

    I do suppose it is possible as you have said, that the entire batch is actually Dentate, and I guess time will tell. However it has been about 5 months already, and none of the others looks any different than a normal VFT, but perhaps you are right.
    But IF indeed they stay "Typical", then I guess another situation must have caused this to happen. (Perhaps that guy with the dirty scapel!) If anyone else has a thought, I am open to hear it.

    Well, so much for the first part of my question. More importantly, I hope someone can help me to find out about which VFT's come true from seed and which do not. Also, to help me understand why there are so many "Typical" VFT's around. With all the VFT seed that has been grown out, I would have expected more variations than we currently see. Indeed, it seems Typical is the strongest traits with this plant, and everything else recessive.

    Again, I am glad that isn't the case with humans, or we would all look alike! And how boring if all the Sarr's looked the same!
    Experience is the best teacher. At least it used to be.
    But then, common sense isn't so common anymore, is it.


    http://www.terraforums.com/forums/sh...d.php?t=113866

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    Quote Originally Posted by GrowinOld View Post

    As I have had this happen, I started to wonder which (if any) VFT's come true from seed and which do not.
    Like B-52, apparently the seed will not produce more B-52's. I do know about other plants, when a cross is made, a hybrid forms from the seed. However I don't know what 2 types of VFT gave the first B-52. So many VFT's are just considered "Typicals", yet there seems to be some variations in the plants "genetic line" that don't show up until a "fortuitous" cross is made.
    Am I seeing this right, or not?

    It seems that unless plants are propagated via cuttings/cloning, they could be ANYTHING!
    Hey Paul,

    Unless I'm grossly unaware of VFTs, I can't think of any cultivars that do come true from seed. That's not to say that they can't or don't but I would look at the cultivar/grex descriptions. http://www.carnivorousplants.org/cpn...istrations.htm
    Some specify vegetative propagation only but some aren't as clear cut...

    Quote Originally Posted by GrowinOld View Post
    there seems to be some variations in the plants "genetic line" that don't show up until a "fortuitous" cross is made.
    That's very debatable I think because many of the traits that qualify a grex or cultivar vanish during some parts of the growing season or completely disappear under less than ideal conditions. Such as you say with your dentate which my guess is was growing in deplorable conditions in it's cube. Even then I find that some cultivars that get registered are basically just splitting hairs between one or two other cultivars... Now I will admit that I don't have "the trained eye" for VFTs to separate similar looking cultivars/grex apart but sometimes I feel like I am looking at the same plant and it just has a different name tag...

  5. #5
    Tropical Fish Enthusiast jimscott's Avatar
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    AFAIK, the best way to reproduce / perpetuate desired characteristics (outside of tissue culture) is to take basal leaf pullings and sprout them. Even then, I'm not sure that this is guaranteed.

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    Not Growing Up! GrowinOld's Avatar
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    Yea,
    Leaf pullings are the original TC propagation method!
    Apparently the only way to make sure you have a true "copy" of the original, at least as far as VFT's are concerned. It would be nice to create something that is "dominant" enough to carry over and cross the "seed" line however.

    It does seem to me that the "Typical" VFT characteristics are the strongest, and that it will take some real "convincing" before the plant line will consider anything is better than what it is already doing!
    (VFT's must be the most arrogant CP species! Thinking it is perfect already, it just doesn't like the idea of change!
    [Yea, I am just kidding, but indeed unlike Sarrs, Dews and such, it is a breed unto its own, and doesn't like sharing its lone position with others of its kind, for there are none!]

    While I do love them, and wouldn't like to see too many "types" of VFT's around, it would be nice to have something to hybridize, and at least some hope of creating a bit more variation to their form.
    It is currently like having a family of thousands , but everyone in the family looks exactly like Mom , except for a few odd cousins here and there , who may appear a little different in some weird ways ! Relatives with dental problems , facial deformities and such .

    And amongst the "good looking members of the family", I agree wholeheartedly French3z,
    I don't have "a trained eye" for minute VFT differences either, and other than a few red ones or funky toothed members... I also feel like I am looking at the same damn plant with a different name tag on it! (Nice way of putting it!) (I do notice the LARGE trapped ones and love them, but beyond that, Tha...tha... tha... that's all folks!

    Well thanks for the input about this. The reason I asked about the Dentate plant, was because I didn't know if it was a plant "type" that was caused by some TC mutation in the first place, and thought perhaps I was just getting a plant that had did this sort of mutating. Like if one in 100 plants in TC do this or something.

    Well, I hope to look into this "VFT Hybridizing" thing a bit further. I assume I will either need a lot of work and time, or perhaps a whole lot of luck.... or likely....both! That's okay, I wasn't going anywhere for a while anyway! Besides, it will keep me off the streets!

    Take care all.
    Paul
    PS: Thanks again to all who replied.... Posted and in PM!
    Experience is the best teacher. At least it used to be.
    But then, common sense isn't so common anymore, is it.


    http://www.terraforums.com/forums/sh...d.php?t=113866

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    Tropical Fish Enthusiast jimscott's Avatar
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    I think that sets a record for smilies!

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    Not Growing Up! GrowinOld's Avatar
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    Smiles!

    I actually did more originally,
    but they put a limit on them!

    Coming from a comic strip background and being an artist,
    I like the little guys!
    Posts look so boring without pictures or characters!

    Experience is the best teacher. At least it used to be.
    But then, common sense isn't so common anymore, is it.


    http://www.terraforums.com/forums/sh...d.php?t=113866

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