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Thread: Opinions Wanted! Field collecting?

  1. #1
    Not Growing Up! GrowinOld's Avatar
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    Opinions Wanted! Field collecting?

    Field collecting?

    It is interesting to me how people speak out so strongly and emotionally against the behavior of people/places like Jim P from Peter-Paul's Nursery, or how involved a discussion of the "legalities" of field collecting of specific plants gets, etc.

    AVOIDING ALL OF THAT (save it for elsewhere please, unless it pertains specifically), I would like to know everyone's OPINION of field collecting plants/materials, and whether you think it is ethical behavior for us to support... and if so, where you think the "line" should be drawn.

    I realize there are entire industries collecting peat, sand, etc. and I am NOT referring to businesses so much as I am to our own TF members. I am wanting to know what kind of people are here, loving and growing CP's, and sometimes even loving and respecting its environment. Where do YOU stand on this matter. And as a TF member, what do you want and expect from fellow members? (Even if you are young and haven't given this any thought at all, speak up and say so!)

    Is it only the law that guides you?, or do your think for yourself and have your own opinion about this? If you support this freedom of field collecting, where do you draw the line? (I am interested in that also.)

    Again, be specific as you can, and also if you have ways that you deal with this situation, share those too. (Like people did when they discovered what Peter Paul's was like!)
    Please keep this to YOUR opinions. I am not interested in what the laws state at all!

    Contrary to what people may think, I am NOT against field collecting.
    I actually have nothing at all against someone legally collecting, in a responsible and "environmentally-respectful way. But now, what means... "a responsible and "environmentally-respectful way"?
    These are what I want to hear from all of you! (Yes, even those to whom I have disagreed with in the past.)

    Thanks in advance for those of you who care to reply. And thanks especially to those who reply in a mutually respectful way.
    Experience is the best teacher. At least it used to be.
    But then, common sense isn't so common anymore, is it.


    http://www.terraforums.com/forums/sh...d.php?t=113866

  2. #2
    I hate bugs. Carnivorous plants get me. jpappy789's Avatar
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    I'm not sure how to best answer the question...I'm not even 100% sure what I think myself.

    I would like to think that taking a specimen here or there couldn't hurt but at the same time I don't think I would want to take that chance myself. Drawing the line between what is environmentally friendly and what is harmful isn't necessarily clear and I feel like people could easily step over that line without facing punishment. Because of that I guess I would just avoid collecting completely.

    Personally, I will be buying plants that have hopefully been firmly established in cultivation and leave what is out there, out there. I might be unintentionally crossing plants off my want list as I speak LOL. Heck, some of the plants I currently have may not even be fitting my standards without my knowledge!

    Again, this is just my opinion. I do realize that in order for a plant to be introduced into cultivation initially it would have to be collected. And I now see I'm drifting more towards commercial collecting but in the end I just do not plan on directly participating in this type of business myself.
    -Josh
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  3. #3
    dashman's Avatar
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    I think common sense should be the prevailing factor here.

    If I were in the situation to field collect, which I have never been.

    I would ask myself these questions all three would need to hold true before I would even consider it.

    1. Do I have any right to collect these plants?
    This is an easy test. Do I own the land or have the land owners permission.
    Public property does not give the public the right to collect. It belongs to all of us and not for me
    to decide which portion of the property I want to own.

    2. Is this plant scarce?
    Not only is it endangered, but is the plant scarce in it's own environment. If there are
    thousands of these plants and the plant wasn't in any danger of becoming extinct from my interference
    then I would feel OK taking a few. If they appeared scarce, I would not harm them.

    3. What are my purposes for collecting?
    If only a few and only for my own needs, then I would say my deeds are virtuous since I
    can then sustain a population in my care and enjoy the fruits of my labor by sharing and
    trading the offspring.

    If more than a few and my motives are for quick personal gain, then that is not virtuous in my opinion
    as it is not sustainable given the slow growth habits of most CPs.

    4. Lastly if all three above criteria were true I would then ask myself...
    Can I take a few seeds or cuttings w/o taking the whole plant.

  4. #4
    BigBella's Avatar
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    There was a discussion on the CP UK site last month -- dealing, primarily, with extinction and some conservation issues; and the usual vapid straw man arguments about capitalism and overpopulation's role played a part, as well as some issues dealing with field collection (since I did know a number of people who got into some seriously hot water over the years -- though all but one eventually managed to get all charges dismissed).

    "One of the major issues associated with conservation -- plants in particular -- is the odd categorization or lumping together of some plant species, which wasn't originally intended, under the same rubric as, say, endangered mega-fauna -- elephants, rhinoceros, and lions (that, and the various products made from them) -- under CITES Appendix I (Most Endangered) status; the analogy suffers when you consider that a single plant's seed pod (and a mature plant may produce five to twenty per season -- many orchid species, for example) -- could potentially produce upwards of 10,000 seedlings under cultivation (many orders of magnitude greater than that of any of the CITES I protected animal counterparts), whereas only a few percent of the plants ever survive to reproductive maturity in the wild, due to competition for resources, to herbivory, disease -- any number of factors.

    "Paradoxically, it is quite legal, as others have mentioned, to flood a habitat for a hydroelectric dam, farming, construction of roads, or even golf courses and resorts, but CITES makes it all but impossible and highly illegal (under the threat of imprisonment and hundreds of thousands of dollars or euros in fines) to salvage those plants, even the odd seed pod, and potentially distribute them to cultivation . . .

    "There have been armed raids -- many certainly political in motivation -- of private collections of those suspected of possessing illegal species (notoriously, one in the 1980s on Henry Azadehdel, a famed orchid expert, describer of a number of species, a contributor and former collector for Kew Gardens) throughout Europe and the Americas and the confiscation of thousands of plants. To add insult to injury, the plants are more-than-often neglected and, on some occasions, thousands of supposedly all-important CITES I plants die while in custody. Plant labels are carelessly or even intentionally changed or "lost"; roots and blooms are trimmed, and broken, so that the age of the plants in question are often indeterminate as to whether they were cultivated or potentially collected from the wild. Even more ridiculous, is the fact that many herbarium specimens -- dried, some hundreds of years old -- cannot be imported or exported for study, due to reflexive CITES restrictions. It is also quite ironic that many commercial growers who had been under suspicion at one time or another -- especially now that so very much is readily tissue cultured in house -- have managed to cultivate larger populations of some endangered plant species than those that currently exist in the wild.

    "Compounding the issue, are species that have been cultivated in collections -- many for decades -- that have only recently fallen under the CITES I restrictions, such as the entire orchid genus, Paphiopedilum did, in 1990. Overnight, many growers found that they possessed contraband in their greenhouses and were at risk of imprisonment and or sizable fines; and most people after some years, cannot document where they obtained each and every plant -- including those which were then-legally imported, some even wild-collected -- from Asia in the 1980s . . ."


    Last edited by BigBella; 10-14-2010 at 12:27 PM.
    “Sì perché l'autorità dell'opinione di mille nelle scienze non val per una scintilla di ragione di un solo . . ."

    -- Galileo "Biff" Galilei

  5. #5
    dashman's Avatar
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    That is the reason I believe common sense should prevail ...
    Last edited by dashman; 10-14-2010 at 12:30 PM. Reason: Removed RANT! :)

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    There's plenty of different views out there but here are mine and how I feel if I were to do this I would justify them...

    Is the plant in question able to grow without assistance in it's current place or is it a matter of time until it is doomed? i.e Development, degradation due to land modification etc...

    Can I keep this plant alive in a private collection? (expertise, funds etc...)

    Am I or will I be able to share this plant with multiple people should something happen to my collection?

    Will my actions benefit the community?



    I personally strongly believe that collecting should be done by responsible collectors with a goal in sight... The plant may be very common, say D. rotundifolia but if one collects wild rotund and doesn't take the time to make sure that the original location of the plant is passed along, how is that anything other than 'raping the land'?
    I also feel that NO personal gain should be made (ie. sales); if sales are made what difference is there between these actions and poaching Regardless of having permission from the land owner or should it be your land, making money off collected material is not what THIS community is about.
    Should collection finally be reached only a small sample will be needed rather than taking 10s or 100s of plants or gallons of live material. Propagation is such a beauty of this hobby that not using it and having a larger effect on the land is simply an act of laziness.

    Where I feel collection should NOT happen would be in instances where the plant from the same location is already in cultivation or the only goal is to make a profit. If everyone proceeded to act with profit in mind, our community would be a lot less rich in content than it currently is. Let's hope it can stay this way despite some of the backwards movement going on...

    Surely I've missed something, I'll just add it back here :P

  7. #7
    Sarracenia Collector Adam's Avatar
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    In my personal opinion, I believe that:
    You should first get permission from the land owners(if it's a state prk, that's better).
    Is it on Cites 1 or 2? If not, go ahead and take 2 plants MAX of that species.
    If it is, take a few leaves for leaf cutting(depends on genus)
    And if it's on Cites, then if you are taking seed, 1 stalk MAX!
    Growlist: http://www.terraforums.com/forums/sh...row-Trade-List
    Collection: http://www.terraforums.com/forums/sh...-Deadly-Plantsn
    Quote Originally Posted by lizasaur
    Minor x Purp I actually have. Well,technically it's Minor Okee x Psitt Green.

  8. #8
    Tastes like chicken! Exo's Avatar
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    Definitely a trick question, but I'll speak my mind...

    I feel that collecting seed in small amounts is acceptable, but taking an actual plant is not (unless it is about to play chicken with a bulldozer of course).
    Some days it just isn't worth chewing thru the restraints.

    My growlist: http://www.terraforums.com/forums/sh...255#post961255

    Video of my birth http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Xc5wIpUenQ

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