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Thread: Cephalotus 'Eden Black' Seeds

  1. #17
    Rob's Avatar
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    **Update**

    Today the Cephalotus 'Eden Black' seeds came in as well as Cephalotus "vigorous clumping" from GardenofEden the person who created this cultivar.
    Last edited by Joseph Clemens; 01-22-2011 at 10:27 AM. Reason: Nomenclature adjustment

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    Quote Originally Posted by bag1234 View Post
    Today the Cephaolotus 'Eden Black' seeds came in as well as Cephalotus "vigorous clumping" from GardenofEden the person who created this cultivator.
    Keep us updated with your germination results ...
    Last edited by Joseph Clemens; 01-21-2011 at 07:18 PM. Reason: Nomenclature adjustment in quote
    All the best,
    Ron
    You must do the thing you think you cannot do. --- Eleanor Roosevelt

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  3. #19
    Aristoloingulamata Dexenthes's Avatar
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    Wow Good luck germinating those! I wouldn't trade any of them at all until after they have sprouted.

    Even then, I'd grow them out to see what kind of traits they are exhibiting. And then... as far as value goes, it's your call. They're your plants, and no doubt you will get offers, it's just up to you take up those offers.

    Use your gut! If you've made trades or noticed someone that has been generous to you or other growers, maybe accept a modest trade, if it's someone hounding you for a trade, do what feels right!

    Want to trade? I have a D. capensis typical ready to go.

    Keep us posted!
    Last edited by Joseph Clemens; 01-21-2011 at 07:18 PM. Reason: Nomenclature adjustment
    LOOKING FOR: N. (argentii x bicalcarata) x {[(lingulata x edwardsiana) x (naga x hamata)] x [(klossii x undulatifolia) x (aristolochioides x rajah)]} Growlist: http://www.terraforums.com/forums/sh...d.php?t=124586

  4. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by RSS View Post
    It would need to be labeled Cephalotus 'Eden Black' x or Cephalotus 'Eden Black' x 'Eden Black' depending if there were 1 or 2 parents.
    I've seen seeds labelled "D. muscipula 'Akai Ryu' F1", and I assumed that these were either selfed or D. 'Akai Ryu x 'Akai Ryu' progeny. Presumably it might also be accurate to label the seeds in this post as "Cephalotus 'Eden Black' F1" seeds as well, yes?
    Last edited by Joseph Clemens; 01-21-2011 at 07:35 PM. Reason: Nomenclature adjstment

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    Quote Originally Posted by jonnyq View Post
    I've seen seeds labelled "D. muscipula 'Akai Ryu' F1", and I assumed that these were either selfed or D. 'Akai Ryu x 'Akai Ryu' progeny. Presumably it might also be accurate to label the seeds in this post as "Cephalotus 'Eden Black' F1" seeds as well, yes?
    I think D. muscipula 'Akai Ryu' F1 would be a specific clone of a crossing between two D. 'Akai Ryu'. The #N means something completely different with other plants, but I've never seen it used the same with CPs, I've seen F1 used as a grid map location on some plants.

    I would think the F1 was just what they labeled a crossing, but this is getting out of my league with naming .

    These seeds should be labeled Cephalotus 'Eden Black' x 'Eden Black' (crossing 2 seperate plants) or just Cephalotus 'Eden Black' x (Selfing a single plant). Later, if they started showing unique characteristics you could go with "Cephalotus ('Eden Black' x 'Eden Black') New Plant Name Here"

    Keep records of everything and keep them labeled very well, that will help more than anything with the value. Even if they turn out looking just like a typical Cephalotus as long as they are properly labeled and can be validated they will be worth way more than a typical.

    Good luck with the seeds, hope they grow well.
    Last edited by Joseph Clemens; 01-21-2011 at 07:32 PM. Reason: Nomenclature adjustments

  6. #22
    Moderator Joseph Clemens's Avatar
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    Okay, okay. Enough wild and woolly naming schemes. Actually some were close.

    I know that my narrative, below is somewhat lengthy and has extraneous information, that is related but not 100% pertinent. The answer is in the last paragraph of this post.

    With Cephalotus follicularis, there can be no interspecific hybrids (crosses between different species or other hybrids in the same genus), since there is only one species in the Cephalotus genus. All that can be created are sexual reproductions within the one species. However, in horticulture, these sexual reproductions can also be considered hybrids in certain specific circumstances.

    So there are only horticultural hybrids possible with Cephalotus follicularis. And presently only hybrids between cultivars would be recognized, horticulturally as Cephalotus follicularis hybrids. So seed produced with at least one parent being a registered cultivar, even selfings of a single cultivar could be considered Cephalotus follicularis hybrids, since they will likely produce offspring with genetic variation.

    Since Cephalotus 'Eden Black' is a selection from non-cultivar parent plants, it is not, itself, of "hybrid" origins. Thus seed produced by self-pollinating Cephalotus 'Eden Black' would not generally be considered an F1 hybrid. It is simply written as Cephalotus 'Eden Black' x self. F1, simply means first filial generation. But in horticulture the parents of an F1 hybrid are usually, first highly inbred to stabilize their desirable traits. This repeated selecting of self-pollinated progeny increases the homozygous traits of the parental line being developed. An F1 hybrid is produced, primarily when two distinct parental lines are crossed to produce a first generation hybrid. Since a selfing of Cephalotus 'Eden Black' is not a cross between two distinct and different parents, it would not be considered a typical F1 hybrid.

    As an example, an F1 hybrid could conceivably be generated by growing a group of Cephalotus follicularis seed, produced by the same mother plant, or distinctly different mother plants. As these seedlings mature, you select one group for depth of pigmentation and another for size of pitcher leaf. You continue growing them until they are mature, then you select the most outstanding individual of the darkly pigmented group and the most outstanding individual of the large pitcher leaf group. You can even register each as a cultivar, if that seems appropriate. Then you self each of these individuals and repeat the process as many times as seems appropriate, generally until the majority of the seedlings, each time, appear nearly identical to their parent. This could be the first selfed generation or the one hundredth. Now you have your inbred F1 parents, you cross them and the offspring are your F1 hybrid population. They are usually very uniform and will be nearly identical to each other and any future populations generated by crossing those very same individual parents to recreate the same F1 cross.

    Since all plants of Cephalotus 'Eden Black', presently are genetically identical (vegetative propagations of one original plant), a cross moving pollen from the same flowers to stigma of the same plant/flowers or moving pollen between flowers of individual Cephalotus 'Eden Black' plants is effectively the same, a selfing. And, since a cultivar is defined as all plants that are identical to the published cultivar definition and photographic standard, conceivably many plants with distinct genetics could be considered the same cultivar. Then that could possibly complicate things, somewhat. It is, of course, more likely that clones grown from seed produced by self-pollinating any Cephalotus 'Eden Black', could possibly meet the standard and also rightfully be called by the cultivar name Cephalotus 'Eden Black'.

    Bottom line - these seed, if produced by self-pollination and not cross-pollination would be labeled: Cephalotus follicularis 'Eden Black' x self, or in a more cumbersome way, Cephalotus follicularis 'Eden Black' x 'Eden Black'. If plants are genetic clones (produced by vegetative propagation), it doesn't matter if they're growing on opposite sides of the planet, and they swap pollen by rocket ship, their seed are still produced by self-pollination.
    Last edited by Joseph Clemens; 01-21-2011 at 09:58 PM.
    Joseph Clemens
    Tucson, Arizona, U S A

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    Rob's Avatar
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    Well said Joseph Clemens.

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    Lucanidae's Avatar
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    @Bag1234, your inbox is full.

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