Egypt

[scottychaos]

@Scotty. Verse and chapter please. There is nothing in the bible that says christians should conquer the world.

Verse is irrelevant..
it simply cant be argued that Christians *have* tried to conquer the world..
and have tried to convert, by the sword, entire cultures that are not Christian..
this is simply basic history..shoulnt be a big surprise to anyone.
but whether that is a good or bad thing depends on your point of view..

As a Christian, I am led to feel that if ALL the world were Christian, that would be a good thing..there would be much more peace in the world..but I also dont believe God necessarily wants it to be that way..and its unlikely it will ever be that way.

Most Christians want the whole world to be Christian, because they believe everyone should worship the "true" God and worship Jesus..this is vitally important for your salvation.
this is simply a fact..the way Christians go about attempting to convert the world varies widely..some means are peaceful, some are not..and whether or not you personally see this as a good or bad thing depends on how and where you were born and raised..

Most Muslims want the whole world to be Muslim, because they believe everyone should worship the "true" God and worship Allah...this is vitally important for your salvation.
this is simply a fact..the way Muslims go about attempting to convert the world varies widely..some means are peaceful, some are not..and whether or not you personally see this as a good or bad thing depends on how and where you were born and raised..

Personally I dont believe the Christian concept that there is only one true religion..
I dont necessarily think the Christians are right, and I dont think the Muslims are right..
I was very offended in a church service a few years ago when a video was being played..something about world history..and there was a brief cartoon-like image of Gandhi burning in Hell..you would be surprised at the HUGE amount of Christians that believe ANY person who dies "unsaved" by Jesus will automatically go straight to hell...I simply cant accept that..Gandhi in Hell? The Dali-Lama will also be going to hell?? No way..God cant possibly work that way. But most Christians and Muslims take their holy books very seriously..and those books both say they are the ONLY true religion..and everyone must be converted..(and throughout history that has meant "by any means possible"..)
and its not going to change any time soon..its still going on right now.

Scot

 

[dashman]

I don't disagree at all that Christians and Muslims alike have done this. What I am disagreeing on is the fact that it is just.

People will always distort information for thier own purposes. Funny how a message of peace and salvation has been turned many times throughout history into a cause for murder.

I am by no means what you would call a model christian. I was brought up a southern baptist, hell fire and brimstone three times a week. I rarely go to church as an adult. I also have some disagreements with the church. My particular pastor as a child was under the assumption that all Catholics were going to hell. Again, the problem with religion is it is run by people.

And in religion, just like anything really there will always be people in power who will use thier influence to manipulate something just and right for thier own purposes. And we all have to make our own decisions as to whether to speak up for what is right or to go with the status quo.

That's why I believe people should draw thier own conclusions and not rely on someone else to do it for them. Intellectual sloth is a plague on our modern society. Most people shy away from things such as politics and economy. Why? These are two of the most important things and have an effect on every man, woman, and child.

Back to Egypt. I hope the people get what they want, a true democracy of the people's choosing free of foreign influence.

 

[Dexenthes]

This is a completely different conversation about the Progressives stance on issues.

But in my mind, progressives stance on issues is simple. Give us your money and freedoms and we will make everything all better. I for one would rather keep my money and freedoms and work with my fellow man to fix it myself.

From the dictionary - Progressive:

–adjective
1.
favoring or advocating progress, change, improvement, or reform, as opposed to wishing to maintain things as they are, esp. in political matters: a progressive mayor.
2.
making progress toward better conditions; employing or advocating more enlightened or liberal ideas, new or experimental methods, etc.: a progressive community.
3.
characterized by such progress, or by continuous improvement.


I grow tired of people making words like liberal conservative or progressive dirty words. Clearly progressive is a GOOD word. The opposite of progressive? Regressive.

My point was that some of Ron Paul's stances on environmental issues are quite Regressive. Its just my opinion that we need a leader in all parts of the world who are willing to be progressive with at the very least environmental issues. (and no, I do not mean cap and trade).

@Scot - there is just now way that all muslims want the entire world to be muslim, or a christian vice versa. Am I alone in thinking that this day and age it is totally essential to accept all walks of life and all beliefs as our founding fathers said we should?

This is not a religious war because the people who are doing the killing are not abiding by their religions - Islam, or Christianity whatsoever. The belief about virgins in heaven? Those ARE radical minorities.

 

[dashman]

Yes, but what they fail to mention is what they are progressing towards. What is the end state for progressives? Or conservatives for that matter.

My beef is that neither Democrats or Republicans give two hoots what the people think. They get elected only to further thier agenda.

OK. I think I have ticked enough people off with my hair brain ideals. Back to CPs for me.

 

[swords]

I would like to hear from the rioters on the street, not their government or the rich people holed up in their guarded mansions that the news has been interviewing. The rich have no idea what the real citizens out in the streets want and the Egyptian government certainly doesn't. The only sad part is no matter what kind of government they get it's only new masters holding the same old chains protecting the aristocracy. Without having heard from the rioters themselves the US State Dept is already telling Suleiman what sort of government they "must" create. The tendrils of America keeping busy with "their man"...

Oh no Scotty and I are in (at least partial) agreement! The world is ending for sure now!

It's not "every" muslim or "every" christian who wants to rule the world but certainly the fundamentalists of both religions who believe in the religious/culture war seek to use every angle of advantage they can to bolster their numbers and their spread of ideals. Persons like Pat Buchanan and Mahmoud Ahmadinejad have both said essentially the same things to their followers. Fox news is continually pumping the "Culture war for the soul of America" - their words almost exactly parroting what Buchanan said in one of his campaign speeches. Very few of these type of people are content to "live and let live". Fundamentalists of all stripes seem to be dangerous lunatics at worst and at best jerks who enjoy poking their noses in everyone else's personal business. Condemning people for victimless "crimes" and making laws for everyone to follow according to their religious principles.

Yes, but what they fail to mention is what they are progressing towards. What is the end state for progressives? Or conservatives for that matter.

It's the old slippery slope argument that we could apply to anything. Sure Glenn Beck can use color forms and chalk lines to draw his slippery slope from the implementation of Social Security and Medicaid to the 3rd Reich, but he's been making poor connections through history for years. If America had no "progressive" laws we'd have unsafe cars, unsafe meat, far more pollution than we already have, you name it. Corporations are not looking out for your best interests but the highest profit margin with the lowest operating costs. Safety standards cost money, the corporations would love deregulated tax-free business! Look at China, there is an example of a society with regulation free industry, you can't hardly see across the street in the smog filled manufacturing cities, can't drink the water, etc. "But we've got a dozen tube socks for $1.99!"

All I have to say about Ron Paul is: "GOLD!"
He sez Gold is the only real money well I disagree, long before people used gold they used shell money, I'm holding out for the candidate who is gonna bring back the sea shell money standard. After all sea shells are the real REAL money!

American presidencies and such are merely figureheads for the American government machine who's sole purpose as of late appears to be protecting the American aristocracy and the corporate elite to the detriment of the rest of the citizens. This machine is clearly beginning to founder at the seams, the experts they keep calling in still don't know which buttons to push. So maybe one day the US will have an Egyptian uprising of it's own. One would think listening to Fox for the last few years that Obama was the devil elected president however I have heard a few TV Republicans recently say "if he'd change his mind on one or two more things he could run for the GOP". This is a far cry from the "danegrous revolutionary changing the fabric of America" they repeatedly told us he was - and clearly did not turn out to be (much to my chagrin).

 

[dashman]

All I have to say about Ron Paul is: "GOLD!"
He sez Gold is the only real money well I disagree, long before people used gold they used shell money, I'm holding out for the candidate who is gonna bring back the sea shell money standard. After all sea shells are the real REAL money!

True. Ron Paul does support the gold standard. That isn't all he says however.

The reason for this is that it cannot be manipulated or created from nothing by a computer or a printing press. It must be backed by something under a gold, silver, or commodity standard. It forces investment and spending of hard assets and not the fractional reserve system we are currently on. It forces governments and banks to be honest and play with honest money. If you don't have the money, you cannot simply create it.

If you are curious as to what can to paper money systems, look in places like Zimbabwe (2000), Germany (WWI), China (WWII).

Here is a kid from Zimbabwe, probably heading to school with his lunch money... Now imagine you are a 70 year old retiree who has spent your lifetime saving up 400,000 dollars for retirement. Poof, in an instant you are flat broke and those closest to the printing presses are not.

This is what Ron Paul is saying when he says we ought to move back to the gold standard. It isn't because he is a Stinky Pete prospecter at heart. It is to protect us from the dangers of money backed by nothing.

There is also the fact that we pay 2% interest on every dollar. So inflation is built into the system already.

 

[emre]

All states are always and exclusively the instruments of their respective ruling classes. They do not exist as abstract entities, but serve the interests of the most powerful. They are generally reactionary, and they never "grant" or "protect" any freedom willingly. The military-industrial complex of the USA is definitely not an exception to this rule.

I am a Turkish secularist and Islamists disgust me. They are capable of hypocrisy and oppression beyond the imagination. We have a religious-oriented government right now and they have proved themselves a bunch of liars, thieves, and murderers. Islamists have never been, and will never be, a force for the good of humanity. They believe that women are inferior to men, Jews don't deserve to exist, all non-Muslims must convert to Islam, etc. They are also very racist, even though some apologists vehemently deny this, since they consider Arabs "the race of the prophet" etc. You cannot imagine the rhetoric of hate they spew against ethno-religious minority groups. They want to destroy everything they cannot understand. Some of them are cunning enough to use a rhetoric of "democracy" when this suits their ends, like our very own government, while others like al-Qaeda do not even need such illusions. The Muslim Brotherhood is a terrorist organisation, even if their mouthpieces say otherwise. There is no such thing as "peaceful" religious oppression.

If they were the only party responsible for instigating this revolt, I would be indifferent. However, I do not believe this is the case. This revolution has been pushed by a progressive, educated, and relatively secular middle class in Egypt. As such, I feel sympathy for them. Whether they like or hate the American government is their own business, and frankly, who cares? The clash between secularism and Islam has little to do with realpolitik. Our religious government is a staunch USA ally. Pakistan, which is more religious, is also a USA ally. Saudi Arabia, which is the worst of all, is also a USA ally. Albanians love Americans even though they're irreligious. Syria, another secular country, is anti-American. Iran, with an Islamist government but a secular people, is anti-American. All these countries have Muslim-majority populations. I find it odd that some people are talking about "a clash of civilisations" because I see no such thing.

@Dashman: I have an American friend who also supports Ron Paul. Just how popular is he?

 

[swords]

It isn't because he is a Stinky Pete prospecter at heart

LOL I know, I just like poking fun at people like him who take that sort of stuff so seriously when there are real problems people are facing that need attention. For good or ill western society is built (or shall we say bought and sold) on usury and that happened many centuries before Roosevelt took America off the gold standard.

Emre, it's interesting to read your thoughts as someone from an Islamic country, are you still living in Turkey? What is your families religious background (Muslim, Christian, Jew, etc.)? I only ask in the interest of trying to see more where your views come from, not to make any nasty sort of comments. My parents were each involved with different christian churches but once the churches became fundamentalist and started getting wacky in their politics and interpretation of the bible as it relates to today's world they began to question. Finally when their churches got into the "end of the world" stuff they were wise enough to leave and never join another.

 

[dashman]

@Swords - I know. There are many other issues at hand. To Ron Paul economy is a big one. That is probably because he deals with this on a daily basis being in most of the banking committee's in congress. Which is why I tend to listen to him. He knows what is going on at a level much more detailed than my own. None of the other politicians want to say boo about the topic. Which amazes me because some could argue our financial goings on is at least partially related to all of the turmoil we are seeing in other countries. Our loose money policy caused the global economic collapse. The global economic collapse is most likely why we are seeing much uprising around the world.

It's the old slippery slope argument that we could apply to anything. Sure Glenn Beck can use color forms and chalk lines to draw his slippery slope from the implementation of Social Security and Medicaid to the 3rd Reich, but he's been making poor connections through history for years. If America had no "progressive" laws we'd have unsafe cars, unsafe meat, far more pollution than we already have, you name it. Corporations are not looking out for your best interests but the highest profit margin with the lowest operating costs. Safety standards cost money, the corporations would love deregulated tax-free business! Look at China, there is an example of a society with regulation free industry, you can't hardly see across the street in the smog filled manufacturing cities, can't drink the water, etc. "But we've got a dozen tube socks for $1.99!"

I don't watch Glenn Beck so really don't know what exactly he talks about. From what I have seen of him, I think he is FOX news' version of Geraldo Rivera back when he was doing the talk show and trying to find Al Capone's treasure.

What? China is anything but degregulated. The government of china regulates everything. Down to who can do business in China. Only recently have they begun to loosen up the grip ever so slightly.

I once owned stock in a China cellular company... well until China decided to reduce competition. It was to be merged with another cell phone provider. CHU is the stock symbol.


@emre - That depends on who you ask. Most establishment Republicans and Democrats hate his guts. He grew in popularity when he decided to run in 2008. We will see if he decides to run in 2012.

 

[raymond]

@emre - we HAD a religious-oriented in America. Unfortunately, we might still have one...

 

[emre]

The government of china regulates everything. Down to who can do business in China.

Yes, they certainly do. A controlled economy doesn't necessary equal public ownership. China is a degenerated workers' state, i.e. they practice state capitalism. On the other hand, "free market" is an oxymoron, because "free markets" create oligarchies which eventually seize control of the economy. This is one of the many inherent contradictions of capitalism.

@Swords: I was born into a Muslim family and yes, I still live in Turkey.
@Raymond: I know... religious fundamentalists need each other to survive, since they benefit from an atmosphere of mutual paranoia. Occasionally they can also team up against a common enemy, like godless communists. This is what happened in many Muslim countries: the USA supported militant Islamist groups to prevent socialists from rising to power.

 

[swords]

Perhaps I've used the wrong word, what I mean is China does not have the same "progressive" worker/environmental protections America claims to have - although it's amazing how many exemptions there seem to be for certain industries. For instance my mothers old job has moved certain engine part building operations to a plant in China, where they can continue to use solvents which continuous daily exposure to causes neurological disorders. Those chemicals are not allowed at the plant here anymore after a few lawsuits and inspections. When Osha came to inspect the US plant where she worked the company was running around hiding the stuff and lied saying they did not have any on site. So while I despise all governments and excess laws I don't believe industry can be allowed to police itself as far as pollution and worker safety which China does not seem to not care a lot about. The bulk of action figures and children's toys are made in China because the plastics used in their manufacture is subject to too much safety regulation in the US.

 

[dashman]

I can certainly agree the some "progressive" laws are good.

What you are describing basically describes to a tee the problem with too much regulation. Companies simply pack up and move to another country with less regulation. Is regulation good, sometimes, but it can have undesired results as we are seeing today with the mass exodus of industry from our country. It is simply cheaper elsewhere due to taxes, red tape, fees, licensing, etc. There are other factors causing labor to move overseas as well. But over regulation does play a part.

The fact that China doesn't give a crap about it's people certainly doesn't help either. But I think they see a way to make a buck cheaply and further strenghten thier growing economic power at the expense of thier impoverished working class people.

PS: I do listen to Hannity on the way home from work on occasion. It sounded like he was calling for the US to go into Egypt and install a democratic government. When will we learn. Also, I must say I am glad to see that for the most part, the uprising has been mostly peaceful. Way to go Egypt! It's definately better than the alternative.

 

[swords]

My mothers company did not leave the US, only their most toxic operations were sent to China, it's her "old job" cos she retired half a decade ago or so. That particular job is toxic whether it is done here or done over there, the only reason it's not done here is because here is because companies are cheap and do not want to pay for the necessary safety precautions. They could do it here... In China they definitely don't care what happens to their workers - I mean even less than companies do here. What I would like to know from all the de-regulation supporters is what are some instances of industries that are currently regulated and could be de-regulated and have no ill come to the workers, environment or citizens affected by the products or waste from the plant? Those are my 3 biggest concerns as far as industry regulation goes. As far as Jobs leaving I don't suppose NAFTA has anything to do with it?

Hannity as in Hannity's Russia? OMG I haven't been able to stomach a whole episode of Hannity yet. I've made it all the way through Beck a number of times now but Hannity just causes me to wig within the first few minutes! LOL Hey, if you liked Geraldo he's got a show on FOX!

Wait now... what was this thread originally about? Oh yeah... Egypt! The only reason a "peaceful" uprising is possible is because for some reason the army that's in the streets seems to be on the side of the people. The last time I checked in with the news they were allowing them to pile up and ride around on the tanks, shaking hands with the protesters and so on. If the army were set against them (as I would have imagined they would have been ordered to be) there would likely be much bloodshed on both sides. But I am definitely happy to see the army seems to have the same agenda as the people and they haven't been mowing them down.

 

[quogue]

I believe Egypt's military has a "wait and see" approach. They will approve who will lead the country so I don't think we have to worry about any Lebanon style problems occuring (coalitions with islamists who end up taking over)
Or at least I hope not, that'll really screw things up then! The price of oil will skyrocket (lots of it goes through the Suez Canal) which would drive up prices for everything all over again and completely screw the world economy possibly triggering more Tunisian-style protests.
Already Jordan is seeing some turmoil, will the Iranians get encouraged and try again? The Chinese sure are censoring this in their news...

We've been buying Egypt's "friendship" anyways, and we'll buy the new guys too.

 

[Dexenthes]

I believe Egypt's military has a "wait and see" approach. They will approve who will lead the country so I don't think we have to worry about any Lebanon style problems occuring (coalitions with islamists who end up taking over)
Or at least I hope not, that'll really screw things up then! The price of oil will skyrocket (lots of it goes through the Suez Canal) which would drive up prices for everything all over again and completely screw the world economy possibly triggering more Tunisian-style protests.
Already Jordan is seeing some turmoil, will the Iranians get encouraged and try again? The Chinese sure are censoring this in their news...

We've been buying Egypt's "friendship" anyways, and we'll buy the new guys too.

It's weird to think this, seeing as I am American, but I'm ready to accept the consequences of reality. I think it will prove better for us in the long run if w e are out of the area and the Egyptians learn to think for themselves. If the price of oil goes up? Well I think many of us can agree it has been long overdue for us to focus on other energy sources.

 

[swords]

We've been buying Egypt's "friendship" anyways, and we'll buy the new guys too.

Yup 1.5 Billion a year to curry Mubarak's favor, just imagine what could be fixed here with that kinda money... Actually I'd rather not think about it! If America pulled it's tendrils out of all the nations it's meddling with our economic woes could be reduced considerably.

 

[swords]

Well, the peaceful part appears to be over...

Of course Fox News now sez: "We can't let these people Egyptians their own government and decide what kind of government they want!"

 

[Dexenthes]

Well, the peaceful part appears to be over...

Of course Fox News now sez: "We can't let these people Egyptians their own government and decide what kind of government they want!"

And I've already heard someone in real life say the same thing. I wish Americans would stop thinking that or saying that!

If the Muslim Brotherhood gets elected by the free Egyptian people, than that is what they want. We have to stop pissing people off! We need to support the Egyptians. Whatever happens I pray to the god that I don't believe in that our government does not decide to do or allow any backhanded shady business when this is all said and done.

My heart goes out to the Egyptian people tonight. The ones that are fighting tooth and nail, stick and stone, in the streets of their capital - dying for their country.

Go Egyptians, Go!

 

[Hotrod30]

It's weird to think this, seeing as I am American, but I'm ready to accept the consequences of reality. I think it will prove better for us in the long run if w e are out of the area and the Egyptians learn to think for themselves. If the price of oil goes up? Well I think many of us can agree it has been long overdue for us to focus on other energy sources.

I really don't think you would want to see gas at $5.00 A GAL.


Hotrod30