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Thread: Egypt

  1. #17
    Aristoloingulamata Dexenthes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RL7836 View Post
    Nervous oil traders took the price of oil from 85.11 to a high of 89.73 from Thursday's low to Friday's high. While there were also some technical issues in this rise (imho), $4.62 / bbl change in one day is fairly significant ...
    That is quite a rise in the price of oil, I agree. I also hadn't heard that information.

    Dichotomies within our foreign policies are everywhere. The Middle East has a bunch of them but how about one of our biggest 'trading partners' - China?
    It's true, our hypocrisy is world-wide. What a can of worms China is!

    Quote Originally Posted by scottychaos View Post
    The thing I am finding the most frustrating about this whole Egypt situation is that its been all over the news for days..but we are told NOTHING about WHY the people of Egypt are up in arms!
    I have heard a myriad of things just by turning on the radio, and signing on to MSN - I by no means feel that that is detailed research whatsoever, however it seems like boiling resentment against the 30 year old regime, poor conditions in their local areas, a feeling of complete dissatisfaction for their government, and

    all the news stories are only about the unrest itself..there is ZERO mention of exactly what the people of Egypt actually want..(except "we want democracy"..ok, but what does that mean??)
    the quest for a Democracy are all reasons that the Egyptian people are rising up in the thousands.

    when this happens (lack of real news) there must be a reason for it..there is something about this story we arent supposed to know..
    And more than likely, that something is the truth about how our Emperialistic behavior in that part of the world is creating all this hate and discontent, and that we have NOT been doing a good job at being the voice of freedom and justice for all.


    fortunately in the USA we have access to the global internet.. yet I couldn't find a more reliable source than -

    source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_Brotherhood
    Seriously.

    In their own words (or are they Wikipedia's?), they want to destroy America..even from within.
    and our own media and our own government is afraid to tell us this..
    Almost as afraid as they are to explain WHY they want to destroy America.

    probably because it would be politically incorrect to say anything bad about muslims..
    (must keep up the myth that all muslims are simply peaceful and tolerant people..)
    so the truth is simply ignored..
    It would be only as politically incorrect as saying bad things about Christian extremists here in the States. I don't think anyone believes that 'myth' of yours, because I have never met anyone that believed an entire group of people could ever be generalized as being one certain way.

    Can anyone think of a better reason why we are told nothing about what is really going on in Egypt?
    You're not looking hard enough.

    sure, the Egyptians want democracy..I dont doubt that.
    but democracy for Egyptians would result in the government the people of Egypt actually want..
    So what?

    and thats not necessarily good news for the USA..or the Western world in general.. because it would result in the increase in anti-Western muslim power..
    If that's the case, so be it, our government is the one to blame. We need to stop perpetuating our invasive mistakes in the region. This could be our chance to aide the people in electing a government they want, regardless of what Religion they worship, or how they view us.

    Its a culture war people, a religious war..

    a large segment of the Muslim word really does want to kill us all..
    Just like a large segment of our population actually believes what your saying, and Wikipedia. It's only true if you make it true. If you want to be scared of Muslims, than do it, it will only make angry Muslims think they are scarier.

    I'm not at war with anyone, and I am not religious. My culture does not exemplify that which Egyptians hate, because I live in a country where I can choose completely how I want to live my life and what culture I want to exude.


    we are told "its just a small radical minority"..im not so sure about that..

    Scot
    Better start making friends with the majority then, right?

    Quote Originally Posted by dashman View Post
    "I am convinced that if we are to get on the right side of the world revolution, we as a nation must undergo a radical revolution of values. We must rapidly begin the shift from a “thing-oriented” society to a “person-oriented” society. When machines and computers, profit motives and property rights are considered more important than people, the giant triplets of racism, materialism, and militarism (and crusaderism) are incapable of being conquered."

    Martin Luther King Jr.

    Crusaderism is added by me.

    This is why I hold MLK day in such high regard. Historians will tell you he fought for the civil rights of African Americans. But those who know history know he fought for the freedoms of all peoples. Regardless of race, religion, creed, color, or class.

    I feel now is time for a shameless plug for my candidate for the presidency of the US of A.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CBtL3NIcAvU
    Ahhh all that you said, Dashman, is right on. I like that video of Ron Paul, and I like Ron Paul. I thought about voting for him in 2008, but I did not. A lot of the stuff Ron says is terrific, but he does have some pretty non-progressive stances on certain things like the environment... I am torn whether or not I would vote for him in the 2012 election, or whether I will write-in Colbert.

    EDIT: This post was my nine-hundred and ninety sixth, or 996. My favorite 996:

    Last edited by Dexenthes; 01-30-2011 at 04:15 AM.
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  2. #18
    scottychaos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dashman View Post
    Good points. But I think you need to dig deeper as to why one group of muslims want to destroy us and another group of muslims are our friends. I think you may find that the fact they are muslims and we are for the most part Christians has no bearing whatsoever.
    I disagree..
    clearly " the fact they are muslims and we are for the most part Christians" is a huge part of this puzzle..basic history proves that is true..
    Christians and Muslims have been at war for 1500 years..long before the USA even existed..
    Today's conflict between "the Muslim word" and "the Christian world" is simply a continuation of that 1500 year old battle..so thats a part of it.

    But its also true to say that recent actions (past 100 years) of the USA are also a huge factor..but you cant say "Its ALL about the religious war, and its not about the USA"
    or "Its all about the USA, and it has nothing to do with a religious war"..
    both statements are obviously false..

    Both Christians and Muslims are obviously very imperialistic..
    both religions believe it is their duty to take over the world and overthrow all other "false" religions..this is still going on today..
    "that kind of thing" hasnt stopped just because we fancy ourselves (globally) as all nice and modern and tolerant and peaceful in this enlightened age..that just isnt true.

    Its still a fact that Christians and Muslims are at war for control of the world..
    You could say "American Imperialism" is the modern version of Christians trying to take over the world..and you could say that uprising in the Middle East is the Muslims pushing back and them asserting their "God given right" to control the world..

    It just happens that for the past 100 years the Christians have had the edge..
    because of the military might of the USA..but 100 years is a drop in the bucket.
    the pendulum could swing back, and if it does, dont think the Muslims wont take the chance to spread their own oppression..

    and dont kid yourself into believing that the Muslims are simply "innocent victims oppressed by the evil USA"..this is not the case...when you look at 1500 years of history, not just the past 100 years, you can see that both sides take the chance to opress anyone else when they have the opportunity and the advantage..(Sudan anyone??)

    So when people try to imply "its all about the USA oppressing the Muslim world"
    no..it isnt..not at all..
    that is just one tiny piece of the larger story..
    believe me, both the Christians and the Muslims would happily take over the world and squash all other "infidel" religions if given the chance..humans, in general, are much less tolerant than you might want to think..

    Scot

  3. #19
    Smile, it makes people nervous :) MH1's Avatar
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    Hm, Well, I'm an Atheist, and I come from the west, and I don't really feel up for a nice spot of word domination, thanks. Not EVERYONE in the west is a Christian.
    And wasn't Sadamm actually helped INTO power, because he wanted to push all the extremists out of the way in the fight for power? For those that have forgotten, Sudan did oppress the extremists, but the dog bit back at America... Weren't the Contra helped along at the start by America too to try and stop communism in South America?
    America just uses people to meet its own ends, i.e, oil and power.

  4. #20
    dashman's Avatar
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    @Scotty. Verse and chapter please. There is nothing in the bible that says christians should conquer the world. But you are correct in that governments have used the ecclesiastical elements of our society to enlist ordinary folks into war. Faith is one of the most powerful driving forces in most societies.

    I for one would not want to stand in front of the creator and explain why I killed people in his name instead of trying to bring them his message. But that is just me I guess. The only time this is justified under Christianity is for defense. Regardless of historical warring between Christian and Muslims we must look at who are the invaders in the current conflicts. And that would be us.

    The best thing we can do as a society is get away from the notion that we are the policemen of the world.

    Ahhh all that you said, Dashman, is right on. I like that video of Ron Paul, and I like Ron Paul. I thought about voting for him in 2008, but I did not. A lot of the stuff Ron says is terrific, but he does have some pretty non-progressive stances on certain things like the environment... I am torn whether or not I would vote for him in the 2012 election, or whether I will write-in Colbert.
    This is a completely different conversation about the Progressives stance on issues.

    But in my mind, progressives stance on issues is simple. Give us your money and freedoms and we will make everything all better. I for one would rather keep my money and freedoms and work with my fellow man to fix it myself.
    Last edited by dashman; 01-30-2011 at 09:21 AM.

  5. #21
    scottychaos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dashman View Post
    @Scotty. Verse and chapter please. There is nothing in the bible that says christians should conquer the world.
    Verse is irrelevant..
    it simply cant be argued that Christians *have* tried to conquer the world..
    and have tried to convert, by the sword, entire cultures that are not Christian..
    this is simply basic history..shoulnt be a big surprise to anyone.
    but whether that is a good or bad thing depends on your point of view..

    As a Christian, I am led to feel that if ALL the world were Christian, that would be a good thing..there would be much more peace in the world..but I also dont believe God necessarily wants it to be that way..and its unlikely it will ever be that way.

    Most Christians want the whole world to be Christian, because they believe everyone should worship the "true" God and worship Jesus..this is vitally important for your salvation.
    this is simply a fact..the way Christians go about attempting to convert the world varies widely..some means are peaceful, some are not..and whether or not you personally see this as a good or bad thing depends on how and where you were born and raised..

    Most Muslims want the whole world to be Muslim, because they believe everyone should worship the "true" God and worship Allah...this is vitally important for your salvation.
    this is simply a fact..the way Muslims go about attempting to convert the world varies widely..some means are peaceful, some are not..and whether or not you personally see this as a good or bad thing depends on how and where you were born and raised..

    Personally I dont believe the Christian concept that there is only one true religion..
    I dont necessarily think the Christians are right, and I dont think the Muslims are right..
    I was very offended in a church service a few years ago when a video was being played..something about world history..and there was a brief cartoon-like image of Gandhi burning in Hell..you would be surprised at the HUGE amount of Christians that believe ANY person who dies "unsaved" by Jesus will automatically go straight to hell...I simply cant accept that..Gandhi in Hell? The Dali-Lama will also be going to hell?? No way..God cant possibly work that way. But most Christians and Muslims take their holy books very seriously..and those books both say they are the ONLY true religion..and everyone must be converted..(and throughout history that has meant "by any means possible"..)
    and its not going to change any time soon..its still going on right now.

    Scot

  6. #22
    dashman's Avatar
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    I don't disagree at all that Christians and Muslims alike have done this. What I am disagreeing on is the fact that it is just.

    People will always distort information for thier own purposes. Funny how a message of peace and salvation has been turned many times throughout history into a cause for murder.

    I am by no means what you would call a model christian. I was brought up a southern baptist, hell fire and brimstone three times a week. I rarely go to church as an adult. I also have some disagreements with the church. My particular pastor as a child was under the assumption that all Catholics were going to hell. Again, the problem with religion is it is run by people.

    And in religion, just like anything really there will always be people in power who will use thier influence to manipulate something just and right for thier own purposes. And we all have to make our own decisions as to whether to speak up for what is right or to go with the status quo.

    That's why I believe people should draw thier own conclusions and not rely on someone else to do it for them. Intellectual sloth is a plague on our modern society. Most people shy away from things such as politics and economy. Why? These are two of the most important things and have an effect on every man, woman, and child.

    Back to Egypt. I hope the people get what they want, a true democracy of the people's choosing free of foreign influence.

  7. #23
    Aristoloingulamata Dexenthes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dashman View Post
    This is a completely different conversation about the Progressives stance on issues.

    But in my mind, progressives stance on issues is simple. Give us your money and freedoms and we will make everything all better. I for one would rather keep my money and freedoms and work with my fellow man to fix it myself.
    From the dictionary - Progressive:

    adjective
    1.
    favoring or advocating progress, change, improvement, or reform, as opposed to wishing to maintain things as they are, esp. in political matters: a progressive mayor.
    2.
    making progress toward better conditions; employing or advocating more enlightened or liberal ideas, new or experimental methods, etc.: a progressive community.
    3.
    characterized by such progress, or by continuous improvement.



    I grow tired of people making words like liberal conservative or progressive dirty words. Clearly progressive is a GOOD word. The opposite of progressive? Regressive.

    My point was that some of Ron Paul's stances on environmental issues are quite Regressive. Its just my opinion that we need a leader in all parts of the world who are willing to be progressive with at the very least environmental issues. (and no, I do not mean cap and trade).

    @Scot - there is just now way that all muslims want the entire world to be muslim, or a christian vice versa. Am I alone in thinking that this day and age it is totally essential to accept all walks of life and all beliefs as our founding fathers said we should?

    This is not a religious war because the people who are doing the killing are not abiding by their religions - Islam, or Christianity whatsoever. The belief about virgins in heaven? Those ARE radical minorities.
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  8. #24
    dashman's Avatar
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    Yes, but what they fail to mention is what they are progressing towards. What is the end state for progressives? Or conservatives for that matter.

    My beef is that neither Democrats or Republicans give two hoots what the people think. They get elected only to further thier agenda.

    OK. I think I have ticked enough people off with my hair brain ideals. Back to CPs for me.
    Last edited by dashman; 01-31-2011 at 09:11 AM.

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