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Thread: Egypt

  1. #25
    swords's Avatar
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    I would like to hear from the rioters on the street, not their government or the rich people holed up in their guarded mansions that the news has been interviewing. The rich have no idea what the real citizens out in the streets want and the Egyptian government certainly doesn't. The only sad part is no matter what kind of government they get it's only new masters holding the same old chains protecting the aristocracy. Without having heard from the rioters themselves the US State Dept is already telling Suleiman what sort of government they "must" create. The tendrils of America keeping busy with "their man"...

    Oh no Scotty and I are in (at least partial) agreement! The world is ending for sure now!

    It's not "every" muslim or "every" christian who wants to rule the world but certainly the fundamentalists of both religions who believe in the religious/culture war seek to use every angle of advantage they can to bolster their numbers and their spread of ideals. Persons like Pat Buchanan and Mahmoud Ahmadinejad have both said essentially the same things to their followers. Fox news is continually pumping the "Culture war for the soul of America" - their words almost exactly parroting what Buchanan said in one of his campaign speeches. Very few of these type of people are content to "live and let live". Fundamentalists of all stripes seem to be dangerous lunatics at worst and at best jerks who enjoy poking their noses in everyone else's personal business. Condemning people for victimless "crimes" and making laws for everyone to follow according to their religious principles.


    Yes, but what they fail to mention is what they are progressing towards. What is the end state for progressives? Or conservatives for that matter.
    It's the old slippery slope argument that we could apply to anything. Sure Glenn Beck can use color forms and chalk lines to draw his slippery slope from the implementation of Social Security and Medicaid to the 3rd Reich, but he's been making poor connections through history for years. If America had no "progressive" laws we'd have unsafe cars, unsafe meat, far more pollution than we already have, you name it. Corporations are not looking out for your best interests but the highest profit margin with the lowest operating costs. Safety standards cost money, the corporations would love deregulated tax-free business! Look at China, there is an example of a society with regulation free industry, you can't hardly see across the street in the smog filled manufacturing cities, can't drink the water, etc. "But we've got a dozen tube socks for $1.99!"

    All I have to say about Ron Paul is: "GOLD!"
    He sez Gold is the only real money well I disagree, long before people used gold they used shell money, I'm holding out for the candidate who is gonna bring back the sea shell money standard. After all sea shells are the real REAL money!

    American presidencies and such are merely figureheads for the American government machine who's sole purpose as of late appears to be protecting the American aristocracy and the corporate elite to the detriment of the rest of the citizens. This machine is clearly beginning to founder at the seams, the experts they keep calling in still don't know which buttons to push. So maybe one day the US will have an Egyptian uprising of it's own. One would think listening to Fox for the last few years that Obama was the devil elected president however I have heard a few TV Republicans recently say "if he'd change his mind on one or two more things he could run for the GOP". This is a far cry from the "danegrous revolutionary changing the fabric of America" they repeatedly told us he was - and clearly did not turn out to be (much to my chagrin).

  2. #26
    dashman's Avatar
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    All I have to say about Ron Paul is: "GOLD!"
    He sez Gold is the only real money well I disagree, long before people used gold they used shell money, I'm holding out for the candidate who is gonna bring back the sea shell money standard. After all sea shells are the real REAL money!
    True. Ron Paul does support the gold standard. That isn't all he says however.

    The reason for this is that it cannot be manipulated or created from nothing by a computer or a printing press. It must be backed by something under a gold, silver, or commodity standard. It forces investment and spending of hard assets and not the fractional reserve system we are currently on. It forces governments and banks to be honest and play with honest money. If you don't have the money, you cannot simply create it.

    If you are curious as to what can to paper money systems, look in places like Zimbabwe (2000), Germany (WWI), China (WWII).

    Here is a kid from Zimbabwe, probably heading to school with his lunch money... Now imagine you are a 70 year old retiree who has spent your lifetime saving up 400,000 dollars for retirement. Poof, in an instant you are flat broke and those closest to the printing presses are not.


    This is what Ron Paul is saying when he says we ought to move back to the gold standard. It isn't because he is a Stinky Pete prospecter at heart. It is to protect us from the dangers of money backed by nothing.

    There is also the fact that we pay 2% interest on every dollar. So inflation is built into the system already.
    Last edited by dashman; 01-31-2011 at 10:54 PM.

  3. #27

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    All states are always and exclusively the instruments of their respective ruling classes. They do not exist as abstract entities, but serve the interests of the most powerful. They are generally reactionary, and they never "grant" or "protect" any freedom willingly. The military-industrial complex of the USA is definitely not an exception to this rule.

    I am a Turkish secularist and Islamists disgust me. They are capable of hypocrisy and oppression beyond the imagination. We have a religious-oriented government right now and they have proved themselves a bunch of liars, thieves, and murderers. Islamists have never been, and will never be, a force for the good of humanity. They believe that women are inferior to men, Jews don't deserve to exist, all non-Muslims must convert to Islam, etc. They are also very racist, even though some apologists vehemently deny this, since they consider Arabs "the race of the prophet" etc. You cannot imagine the rhetoric of hate they spew against ethno-religious minority groups. They want to destroy everything they cannot understand. Some of them are cunning enough to use a rhetoric of "democracy" when this suits their ends, like our very own government, while others like al-Qaeda do not even need such illusions. The Muslim Brotherhood is a terrorist organisation, even if their mouthpieces say otherwise. There is no such thing as "peaceful" religious oppression.

    If they were the only party responsible for instigating this revolt, I would be indifferent. However, I do not believe this is the case. This revolution has been pushed by a progressive, educated, and relatively secular middle class in Egypt. As such, I feel sympathy for them. Whether they like or hate the American government is their own business, and frankly, who cares? The clash between secularism and Islam has little to do with realpolitik. Our religious government is a staunch USA ally. Pakistan, which is more religious, is also a USA ally. Saudi Arabia, which is the worst of all, is also a USA ally. Albanians love Americans even though they're irreligious. Syria, another secular country, is anti-American. Iran, with an Islamist government but a secular people, is anti-American. All these countries have Muslim-majority populations. I find it odd that some people are talking about "a clash of civilisations" because I see no such thing.

    @Dashman: I have an American friend who also supports Ron Paul. Just how popular is he?

  4. #28
    swords's Avatar
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    It isn't because he is a Stinky Pete prospecter at heart
    LOL I know, I just like poking fun at people like him who take that sort of stuff so seriously when there are real problems people are facing that need attention. For good or ill western society is built (or shall we say bought and sold) on usury and that happened many centuries before Roosevelt took America off the gold standard.

    Emre, it's interesting to read your thoughts as someone from an Islamic country, are you still living in Turkey? What is your families religious background (Muslim, Christian, Jew, etc.)? I only ask in the interest of trying to see more where your views come from, not to make any nasty sort of comments. My parents were each involved with different christian churches but once the churches became fundamentalist and started getting wacky in their politics and interpretation of the bible as it relates to today's world they began to question. Finally when their churches got into the "end of the world" stuff they were wise enough to leave and never join another.

  5. #29
    dashman's Avatar
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    @Swords - I know. There are many other issues at hand. To Ron Paul economy is a big one. That is probably because he deals with this on a daily basis being in most of the banking committee's in congress. Which is why I tend to listen to him. He knows what is going on at a level much more detailed than my own. None of the other politicians want to say boo about the topic. Which amazes me because some could argue our financial goings on is at least partially related to all of the turmoil we are seeing in other countries. Our loose money policy caused the global economic collapse. The global economic collapse is most likely why we are seeing much uprising around the world.
    It's the old slippery slope argument that we could apply to anything. Sure Glenn Beck can use color forms and chalk lines to draw his slippery slope from the implementation of Social Security and Medicaid to the 3rd Reich, but he's been making poor connections through history for years. If America had no "progressive" laws we'd have unsafe cars, unsafe meat, far more pollution than we already have, you name it. Corporations are not looking out for your best interests but the highest profit margin with the lowest operating costs. Safety standards cost money, the corporations would love deregulated tax-free business! Look at China, there is an example of a society with regulation free industry, you can't hardly see across the street in the smog filled manufacturing cities, can't drink the water, etc. "But we've got a dozen tube socks for $1.99!"
    I don't watch Glenn Beck so really don't know what exactly he talks about. From what I have seen of him, I think he is FOX news' version of Geraldo Rivera back when he was doing the talk show and trying to find Al Capone's treasure.

    What? China is anything but degregulated. The government of china regulates everything. Down to who can do business in China. Only recently have they begun to loosen up the grip ever so slightly.

    I once owned stock in a China cellular company... well until China decided to reduce competition. It was to be merged with another cell phone provider. CHU is the stock symbol.


    @emre - That depends on who you ask. Most establishment Republicans and Democrats hate his guts. He grew in popularity when he decided to run in 2008. We will see if he decides to run in 2012.
    Last edited by dashman; 01-31-2011 at 09:37 AM.

  6. #30
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    @emre - we HAD a religious-oriented in America. Unfortunately, we might still have one...
    "Think of how stupid the average person is, and then realize half of them are stupider than that." --George Carlin

  7. #31

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    The government of china regulates everything. Down to who can do business in China.
    Yes, they certainly do. A controlled economy doesn't necessary equal public ownership. China is a degenerated workers' state, i.e. they practice state capitalism. On the other hand, "free market" is an oxymoron, because "free markets" create oligarchies which eventually seize control of the economy. This is one of the many inherent contradictions of capitalism.

    @Swords: I was born into a Muslim family and yes, I still live in Turkey.
    @Raymond: I know... religious fundamentalists need each other to survive, since they benefit from an atmosphere of mutual paranoia. Occasionally they can also team up against a common enemy, like godless communists. This is what happened in many Muslim countries: the USA supported militant Islamist groups to prevent socialists from rising to power.

  8. #32
    swords's Avatar
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    Perhaps I've used the wrong word, what I mean is China does not have the same "progressive" worker/environmental protections America claims to have - although it's amazing how many exemptions there seem to be for certain industries. For instance my mothers old job has moved certain engine part building operations to a plant in China, where they can continue to use solvents which continuous daily exposure to causes neurological disorders. Those chemicals are not allowed at the plant here anymore after a few lawsuits and inspections. When Osha came to inspect the US plant where she worked the company was running around hiding the stuff and lied saying they did not have any on site. So while I despise all governments and excess laws I don't believe industry can be allowed to police itself as far as pollution and worker safety which China does not seem to not care a lot about. The bulk of action figures and children's toys are made in China because the plastics used in their manufacture is subject to too much safety regulation in the US.

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