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Egypt

Dexenthes

Aristoloingulamata
What's your take on this major uprising in Egypt?

I for one, find it really amazing. These are turning out to be pivotal times around the world. First Tunisia, and the separation of Southern Sudan, and now massive continuous protests in Egypt that are apparently more or less unopposed by the military, calling for President Mubarak immediate resignation.

This puts us as a nation in one of the most difficult international situations in recent times.

We have, for decades, supported Mubarak's totalitarian and corrupt regime in Egypt. This support has lead to our being able to use the Suez Canal in military operations and the peace treaty with Israel that has yet to be broken.

But on the flipside, it has more or less disgraced the will of the Egyptian people. We say that we are proponents of Democracy and Freedom all across the globe, yet here are the Egyptian people rising up in opposition, demanding freedom and Democracy, and look at how light-footed our government is.

The hypocrisy that we as a nation have exerted in the middle east is just phenomenal.

We heavy-handedly invade Iraq to liberate them and give them freedom - without their people uprising to the extent that Egypt is now, and now when Egypt rises up and shows their discontent, where are we to over-throw their corrupt, middle-eastern government?

Yet the tear gas that is being fired into these Democracy seekers is 100% made in:

The U.S.A.

What kind of country are we that only makes cars, weapons, poison gas, and drugs?

What's your two cents on this issue?
 
My 2 cents is that this is just politics as usual...barely noteworthy.
 
Yemen is starting to have an uprising too
 
Yemen is starting to have an uprising too

Really I hadn't heard that! I'll look it up.

I think these are exciting times. I feel a little bad though, I know the people of these countries are probably going to resent us Americans if they don't already. I wish I could let them know that not all Americans (hopefully very few) actually support the oppression their people. :(
 
Basically, we support whomever will allow us to have economic influence. A democracy is desirable over a dictatorship, but if the dicstator is friendly to us, we can work with it. We didn't liberate Iraq. We got rid of someone who got in our way.
 
Basically, we support whomever will allow us to have economic influence. A democracy is desirable over a dictatorship, but if the dicstator is friendly to us, we can work with it. We didn't liberate Iraq. We got rid of someone who got in our way.

Right, that is what essentially happened, but what were we the people told?
 
The people are lied to, nothing new here. What is new is that so many are now awakening to what is happening.

If you want to understand why our "enemies" hate us all you need to do is look at history. Western civilization has overthrown countries like Iran on multiple occasions. Iran is our enemy because the people of Iran refuse to accept the puppet regimes that we have put in place that will allow foreign companies to come in and steal all of thier natural resources for profit, with a little kick back to the ruling elite of course. We have enemies because we are the agressors. Only rarely does it escalate into violence. Most of our agression is done by men in suits.
 
LOL! In WW2 we were told that the reason why we dropped the bombs was to save American lives. Okay..... but what about the Japanese and the radiation? I guess that the Japenese aren't people..... We're told what is expedient.
 
LOL! In WW2 we were told that the reason why we dropped the bombs was to save American lives. Okay..... but what about the Japanese and the radiation? I guess that the Japenese aren't people..... We're told what is expedient.

A country's duty is to ITS people, not to the country it is at war with.....so of course they will kill another county's people to save it's own...it's just the way war works.
 
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  • #10
A country's duty is to IT'S people, not to the country it is at war with.....so of course they will kill another county's people to save it's own...it's just the way war works.


*ITS
 
  • #11
A country's duty is to IT'S people, not to the country it is at war with.....so of course they will kill another county's people to save it's own...it's just the way war works.


Even that is debatable, especially in conflict. America has historically taken our freedoms from us under the guise of protecting us. WWII is a perfect example. Many US citizens were wrangled up and put into internment camps based on thier race to protect us.

Today we have things such as the Patriot Act to keep us "safe".

Governments main duty is to preserve itself. By itself, I mean the government.
 
  • #12
There are potentially significant implications for Israel and according to the EIA:
The Suez Canal, which connects the Mediterranean and Red Seas, moved 1 million to 1.6 million barrels a day of oil and refined products north to Europe and other developed economies in 2008 and 2009, according to the Energy Information Administration, the statistical arm of the U.S. Energy Department. The EIA identified the canal as one of seven “world oil transit chokepoints” in a report earlier this month.
Nervous oil traders took the price of oil from 85.11 to a high of 89.73 from Thursday's low to Friday's high. While there were also some technical issues in this rise (imho), $4.62 / bbl change in one day is fairly significant ...
The hypocrisy that we as a nation have exerted in the middle east is just phenomenal.
Dichotomies within our foreign policies are everywhere. The Middle East has a bunch of them but how about one of our biggest 'trading partners' - China?
 
  • #13
The thing I am finding the most frustrating about this whole Egypt situation is that its been all over the news for days..but we are told NOTHING about WHY the people of Egypt are up in arms!

all the news stories are only about the unrest itself..there is ZERO mention of exactly what the people of Egypt actually want..(except "we want democracy"..ok, but what does that mean??)

when this happens (lack of real news) there must be a reason for it..there is something about this story we arent supposed to know..

fortunately in the USA we have access to the global internet..

"If there were free and fair elections, it is widely expected that the Islamist Muslim Brotherhood would win."
source: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12317285

I think our government SAYS they want democracy in Egypt..but they dont really mean it..
because true Democracy in Egypt would elect a very anti-US Egyptian government.

The Muslim Brotherhood has been active in the US since the 1960s. Its stated goals have included propagating Islam and creating havens for Muslims in the US, and integrating Muslims. A main strategy has been dawah or Islamic renewal and outreach. In the 1960s, groups such as U.S. military personnel, prison inmates and African-Americans were specifically targeted for dawah. The goal of the Muslim Brotherhood in the USA is

The process of settlement [of Islam in the United States] is a "Civilization-Jihadist" process with all the word means. The Ikhwan must understand that all their work in America is a kind of grand Jihad in eliminating and destroying the Western civilization from within and "sabotaging" their miserable house by their hands and the hands of the believers so that it is eliminated and God's religion is made victorious over all religions. Without this level of understanding, we are not up to this challenge and have not prepared ourselves for Jihad yet. It is a Muslim's destiny to perform Jihad and work wherever he is and wherever he lands until the final hour comes, and there is no escape from that destiny except for those who choose to slack.[74]

source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_Brotherhood

In their own words, they want to destroy America..even from within.
and our own media and our own government is afraid to tell us this..
probably because it would be politically incorrect to say anything bad about muslims..
(must keep up the myth that all muslims are simply peaceful and tolerant people..)
so the truth is simply ignored..

Can anyone think of a better reason why we are told nothing about what is really going on in Egypt?
sure, the Egyptians want democracy..I dont doubt that.
but democracy for Egyptians would result in the government the people of Egypt actually want..
and thats not necessarily good news for the USA..or the Western world in general.. because it would result in the increase in anti-Western muslim power..

Its a culture war people, a religious war..a large segment of the Muslim word really does want to kill us all..
we are told "its just a small radical minority"..im not so sure about that..

Scot
 
  • #14
Good points. But I think you need to dig deeper as to why one group of muslims want to destroy us and another group of muslims are our friends. I think you may find that the fact they are muslims and we are for the most part Christians has no bearing whatsoever.

Faith is a good tool to rally the troops, but it is not the root cause. Christianity and Islamic faith are largely peaceful religions. That peace stops for both when invasion has occured. To most middleeastern states we are the invaders. And us, well, we have been told we are there to spread freedom and democracy. Whether they like it or not.
 
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  • #15
The thing I am finding the most frustrating about this whole Egypt situation is that its been all over the news for days..but we are told NOTHING about WHY the people of Egypt are up in arms!

all the news stories are only about the unrest itself..there is ZERO mention of exactly what the people of Egypt actually want..(except "we want democracy"..ok, but what does that mean??)

when this happens (lack of real news) there must be a reason for it..there is something about this story we arent supposed to know..

fortunately in the USA we have access to the global internet..


source: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12317285

I think our government SAYS they want democracy in Egypt..but they dont really mean it..
because true Democracy in Egypt would elect a very anti-US Egyptian government.



source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_Brotherhood

In their own words, they want to destroy America..even from within.
and our own media and our own government is afraid to tell us this..
probably because it would be politically incorrect to say anything bad about muslims..
(must keep up the myth that all muslims are simply peaceful and tolerant people..)
so the truth is simply ignored..

Can anyone think of a better reason why we are told nothing about what is really going on in Egypt?
sure, the Egyptians want democracy..I dont doubt that.
but democracy for Egyptians would result in the government the people of Egypt actually want..
and thats not necessarily good news for the USA..or the Western world in general.. because it would result in the increase in anti-Western muslim power..

Its a culture war people, a religious war..a large segment of the Muslim word really does want to kill us all..
we are told "its just a small radical minority"..im not so sure about that..

Scot



Um, I'm a Muslim who doesn't want to kill anyone
 
  • #16
"I am convinced that if we are to get on the right side of the world revolution, we as a nation must undergo a radical revolution of values. We must rapidly begin the shift from a “thing-oriented” society to a “person-oriented” society. When machines and computers, profit motives and property rights are considered more important than people, the giant triplets of racism, materialism, and militarism (and crusaderism) are incapable of being conquered."

Martin Luther King Jr.

Crusaderism is added by me.

This is why I hold MLK day in such high regard. Historians will tell you he fought for the civil rights of African Americans. But those who know history know he fought for the freedoms of all peoples. Regardless of race, religion, creed, color, or class.

I feel now is time for a shameless plug for my candidate for the presidency of the US of A.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CBtL3NIcAvU
 
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  • #17
Nervous oil traders took the price of oil from 85.11 to a high of 89.73 from Thursday's low to Friday's high. While there were also some technical issues in this rise (imho), $4.62 / bbl change in one day is fairly significant ...

That is quite a rise in the price of oil, I agree. :0o: I also hadn't heard that information.
Dichotomies within our foreign policies are everywhere. The Middle East has a bunch of them but how about one of our biggest 'trading partners' - China?

It's true, our hypocrisy is world-wide. What a can of worms China is!

The thing I am finding the most frustrating about this whole Egypt situation is that its been all over the news for days..but we are told NOTHING about WHY the people of Egypt are up in arms!

I have heard a myriad of things just by turning on the radio, and signing on to MSN - I by no means feel that that is detailed research whatsoever, however it seems like boiling resentment against the 30 year old regime, poor conditions in their local areas, a feeling of complete dissatisfaction for their government, and

all the news stories are only about the unrest itself..there is ZERO mention of exactly what the people of Egypt actually want..(except "we want democracy"..ok, but what does that mean??)

the quest for a Democracy are all reasons that the Egyptian people are rising up in the thousands.

when this happens (lack of real news) there must be a reason for it..there is something about this story we arent supposed to know..

And more than likely, that something is the truth about how our Emperialistic behavior in that part of the world is creating all this hate and discontent, and that we have NOT been doing a good job at being the voice of freedom and justice for all.


fortunately in the USA we have access to the global internet.. yet I couldn't find a more reliable source than -

source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_Brotherhood

Seriously.

In their own words (or are they Wikipedia's?), they want to destroy America..even from within.
and our own media and our own government is afraid to tell us this..

Almost as afraid as they are to explain WHY they want to destroy America.

probably because it would be politically incorrect to say anything bad about muslims..
(must keep up the myth that all muslims are simply peaceful and tolerant people..)
so the truth is simply ignored..

It would be only as politically incorrect as saying bad things about Christian extremists here in the States. I don't think anyone believes that 'myth' of yours, because I have never met anyone that believed an entire group of people could ever be generalized as being one certain way.

Can anyone think of a better reason why we are told nothing about what is really going on in Egypt?

You're not looking hard enough.

sure, the Egyptians want democracy..I dont doubt that.
but democracy for Egyptians would result in the government the people of Egypt actually want..

So what?

and thats not necessarily good news for the USA..or the Western world in general.. because it would result in the increase in anti-Western muslim power..

If that's the case, so be it, our government is the one to blame. We need to stop perpetuating our invasive mistakes in the region. This could be our chance to aide the people in electing a government they want, regardless of what Religion they worship, or how they view us.

Its a culture war people, a religious war..

a large segment of the Muslim word really does want to kill us all..
Just like a large segment of our population actually believes what your saying, and Wikipedia. It's only true if you make it true. If you want to be scared of Muslims, than do it, it will only make angry Muslims think they are scarier.

I'm not at war with anyone, and I am not religious. My culture does not exemplify that which Egyptians hate, because I live in a country where I can choose completely how I want to live my life and what culture I want to exude.


we are told "its just a small radical minority"..im not so sure about that..

Scot

Better start making friends with the majority then, right?

"I am convinced that if we are to get on the right side of the world revolution, we as a nation must undergo a radical revolution of values. We must rapidly begin the shift from a “thing-oriented” society to a “person-oriented” society. When machines and computers, profit motives and property rights are considered more important than people, the giant triplets of racism, materialism, and militarism (and crusaderism) are incapable of being conquered."

Martin Luther King Jr.

Crusaderism is added by me.

This is why I hold MLK day in such high regard. Historians will tell you he fought for the civil rights of African Americans. But those who know history know he fought for the freedoms of all peoples. Regardless of race, religion, creed, color, or class.

I feel now is time for a shameless plug for my candidate for the presidency of the US of A.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CBtL3NIcAvU

Ahhh all that you said, Dashman, is right on. I like that video of Ron Paul, and I like Ron Paul. I thought about voting for him in 2008, but I did not. A lot of the stuff Ron says is terrific, but he does have some pretty non-progressive stances on certain things like the environment... I am torn whether or not I would vote for him in the 2012 election, or whether I will write-in Colbert.

EDIT: This post was my nine-hundred and ninety sixth, or 996. My favorite 996:

porsche911.jpg
 
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  • #18
Good points. But I think you need to dig deeper as to why one group of muslims want to destroy us and another group of muslims are our friends. I think you may find that the fact they are muslims and we are for the most part Christians has no bearing whatsoever.

I disagree..
clearly " the fact they are muslims and we are for the most part Christians" is a huge part of this puzzle..basic history proves that is true..
Christians and Muslims have been at war for 1500 years..long before the USA even existed..
Today's conflict between "the Muslim word" and "the Christian world" is simply a continuation of that 1500 year old battle..so thats a part of it.

But its also true to say that recent actions (past 100 years) of the USA are also a huge factor..but you cant say "Its ALL about the religious war, and its not about the USA"
or "Its all about the USA, and it has nothing to do with a religious war"..
both statements are obviously false..

Both Christians and Muslims are obviously very imperialistic..
both religions believe it is their duty to take over the world and overthrow all other "false" religions..this is still going on today..
"that kind of thing" hasnt stopped just because we fancy ourselves (globally) as all nice and modern and tolerant and peaceful in this enlightened age..that just isnt true.

Its still a fact that Christians and Muslims are at war for control of the world..
You could say "American Imperialism" is the modern version of Christians trying to take over the world..and you could say that uprising in the Middle East is the Muslims pushing back and them asserting their "God given right" to control the world..

It just happens that for the past 100 years the Christians have had the edge..
because of the military might of the USA..but 100 years is a drop in the bucket.
the pendulum could swing back, and if it does, dont think the Muslims wont take the chance to spread their own oppression..

and dont kid yourself into believing that the Muslims are simply "innocent victims oppressed by the evil USA"..this is not the case...when you look at 1500 years of history, not just the past 100 years, you can see that both sides take the chance to opress anyone else when they have the opportunity and the advantage..(Sudan anyone??)

So when people try to imply "its all about the USA oppressing the Muslim world"
no..it isnt..not at all..
that is just one tiny piece of the larger story..
believe me, both the Christians and the Muslims would happily take over the world and squash all other "infidel" religions if given the chance..humans, in general, are much less tolerant than you might want to think..

Scot
 
  • #19
Hm, Well, I'm an Atheist, and I come from the west, and I don't really feel up for a nice spot of word domination, thanks. Not EVERYONE in the west is a Christian.
And wasn't Sadamm actually helped INTO power, because he wanted to push all the extremists out of the way in the fight for power? For those that have forgotten, Sudan did oppress the extremists, but the dog bit back at America... Weren't the Contra helped along at the start by America too to try and stop communism in South America?
America just uses people to meet its own ends, i.e, oil and power.
 
  • #20
@Scotty. Verse and chapter please. There is nothing in the bible that says christians should conquer the world. But you are correct in that governments have used the ecclesiastical elements of our society to enlist ordinary folks into war. Faith is one of the most powerful driving forces in most societies.

I for one would not want to stand in front of the creator and explain why I killed people in his name instead of trying to bring them his message. But that is just me I guess. The only time this is justified under Christianity is for defense. Regardless of historical warring between Christian and Muslims we must look at who are the invaders in the current conflicts. And that would be us.

The best thing we can do as a society is get away from the notion that we are the policemen of the world.

Ahhh all that you said, Dashman, is right on. I like that video of Ron Paul, and I like Ron Paul. I thought about voting for him in 2008, but I did not. A lot of the stuff Ron says is terrific, but he does have some pretty non-progressive stances on certain things like the environment... I am torn whether or not I would vote for him in the 2012 election, or whether I will write-in Colbert.
This is a completely different conversation about the Progressives stance on issues.

But in my mind, progressives stance on issues is simple. Give us your money and freedoms and we will make everything all better. I for one would rather keep my money and freedoms and work with my fellow man to fix it myself.
 
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