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Yet another RO unit thread
- Thread starter Kyle
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- built spectrapure
gill_za
Never Knows Best
Hi there,
I am back with questions
First of, a week ago I became a happy owner of this system:
http://filterdirect.com/product_info.php?cPath=21&products_id=117
I bought one with booster pump because during summer the pressure drops very low.
Anyway, I am in the process of installing it under the sink and ran into a slight complication:
-From all diagrams and explanations seen here I was under the impression that torage tank should be setup so that it collects water after it passes through DI filtration stage and the flow diagram that came with the system (below) shows that my system would have two outputs, one after DI stage and one after Inline cabon filter (last stage) that goes to RO faucet. The tank would, it seems, bypass both stages and collect only RO water that would pass through one or the other stage only when the tank is emptied. Am I correct or did I misunderstand something in the diagram?
May I reposition the tubing so that water goes through DI stage first and only then goes either to tank or directly to Carbon filter?
P.S. Also I'm going to position the DI filter vertically despite the diagram and pictures of a comlete setup. Water passes through DI from the top correct?
I am back with questions
First of, a week ago I became a happy owner of this system:
http://filterdirect.com/product_info.php?cPath=21&products_id=117
I bought one with booster pump because during summer the pressure drops very low.
Anyway, I am in the process of installing it under the sink and ran into a slight complication:
-From all diagrams and explanations seen here I was under the impression that torage tank should be setup so that it collects water after it passes through DI filtration stage and the flow diagram that came with the system (below) shows that my system would have two outputs, one after DI stage and one after Inline cabon filter (last stage) that goes to RO faucet. The tank would, it seems, bypass both stages and collect only RO water that would pass through one or the other stage only when the tank is emptied. Am I correct or did I misunderstand something in the diagram?
May I reposition the tubing so that water goes through DI stage first and only then goes either to tank or directly to Carbon filter?
P.S. Also I'm going to position the DI filter vertically despite the diagram and pictures of a comlete setup. Water passes through DI from the top correct?
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Yeah, I don't know what that double tee is for in that diagram. I have mine set up (and it's set up in Butch's footsteps) so that the line tees off right after the DI stage. From there, it goes either to the tank or through the carbon filter to the output. When you open the tank, the water runs from there, through the carbon, to the output. Some captive air bladders can give off VOCs, hence wanting to run it through a carbon stage as the very last thing the water encounters; any VOCs the water may have picked up in the tank get pulled out by the carbon, hopefully.
EDIT: Mmmm, I guess maybe they're figuring if you aren't using water from the tank, you don't need that last carbon stage, hence passing it with the double tee setup. Seems a little overly extravagant if you ask me.
And yes, definitely position DI vertically, and water flows from top to bottom.
EDIT: Mmmm, I guess maybe they're figuring if you aren't using water from the tank, you don't need that last carbon stage, hence passing it with the double tee setup. Seems a little overly extravagant if you ask me.
And yes, definitely position DI vertically, and water flows from top to bottom.
Gill, marketing gimmic I would guess.... I see no real value in having the two outputs..... in fact there may be a slight chance of unwanted back flow through either filter stage 5 or 6
I dont think I would recommend it
Connect as instructed in the threads mate, last thing before the output should be the final carbon stage to remove any VOC from bladder, place Tee after DI stage to remove everything left before it enters the bladder
HTH's
Av
I dont think I would recommend it
Connect as instructed in the threads mate, last thing before the output should be the final carbon stage to remove any VOC from bladder, place Tee after DI stage to remove everything left before it enters the bladder
HTH's
Av
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gill_za
Never Knows Best
@Kyle and Av8tor1
Thank you very much for your prompt replies! The system was reconnected so that the flow passes through DI before going to inline carbon filter or into the tank.
It works. I get 2ppm in the output.
I was hoping though that the booster pump would be "smart" enough to turn off or on triggered by the increase in inlet pressure when water is on. So that I won't have to turn it off or on manually each time. But then again how would it know to do so if the filter is used in a well setup. Oh well can't have everything
I also wonder how to go about filling the tank completely. The flow on the output is still pretty slow even with the booster pump. It seems that the only way for me to know when the tank is full to measure how long it takes to fill a gallon and just divert the flow for that amount of time x4.
Is there a possibility that there might be a rupture somewhere if lets say the tank is full, and the booster pump keeps pushing the water in, building the pressure up?
I apologize if the questions I ask sound dumb, this is my first time using this kind of a filter.
Thank you very much for your prompt replies! The system was reconnected so that the flow passes through DI before going to inline carbon filter or into the tank.
It works. I get 2ppm in the output.
I was hoping though that the booster pump would be "smart" enough to turn off or on triggered by the increase in inlet pressure when water is on. So that I won't have to turn it off or on manually each time. But then again how would it know to do so if the filter is used in a well setup. Oh well can't have everything
I also wonder how to go about filling the tank completely. The flow on the output is still pretty slow even with the booster pump. It seems that the only way for me to know when the tank is full to measure how long it takes to fill a gallon and just divert the flow for that amount of time x4.
Is there a possibility that there might be a rupture somewhere if lets say the tank is full, and the booster pump keeps pushing the water in, building the pressure up?
I apologize if the questions I ask sound dumb, this is my first time using this kind of a filter.
Gill, did you get a manual booster pump kit or the kit with pressure switch?
Pressure switch kit: http://www.spectrapure.com/huds/NEW-BPK-PS-DI-DWK.pdf
manual control kit: http://www.spectrapure.com/huds/NEW-MO-BPK.pdf
if the bladder is ruptured, you will not have stored energy in the form of a compressed gas. Errrr..... in other words the tank pressure will drop almost immediately.
Not sure I understand, can you draw how the booster pump is connected and if it uses a pressure switch or not.
My diagram is for a permeate pump, that is s different critter all together.... dont connect a booster pump up in the same fashion. Use the links i just posted.
Butch
Pressure switch kit: http://www.spectrapure.com/huds/NEW-BPK-PS-DI-DWK.pdf
manual control kit: http://www.spectrapure.com/huds/NEW-MO-BPK.pdf
if the bladder is ruptured, you will not have stored energy in the form of a compressed gas. Errrr..... in other words the tank pressure will drop almost immediately.
Not sure I understand, can you draw how the booster pump is connected and if it uses a pressure switch or not.
My diagram is for a permeate pump, that is s different critter all together.... dont connect a booster pump up in the same fashion. Use the links i just posted.
Butch
gill_za
Never Knows Best
Av8tor1,
The system came preassembled with a booster pump like so:
The pump is installed after the sediment filter but before the carbon filters (if I remember correctly, I will check if it is important). I will also check again how the pressure switch and solenoid valve are installed/connected.
The booster pump assembly itself (http://filterdirect.com/product_info.php?products_id=97) includes a pressure switch actually. The product description says this:
When you shut off the dispensing valve or when your own float valve closes, the automatic shut-off valve shuts off the water feed and drain, so prevent wastage of water going to drain. And if you have your own large container and float control valve, this system would turn ON/OFF automatically to refill your container..
and this is taken from their entry for the separately sold pump:
After installing Pump assembly, the RO system will be controlled electronically by the solenoid valve and pressure switch, so when tank is full or reaches 40 psi, the pump will shut-off and the solenoid valve would turn off the water supply. This is a better system than RO without pump since the pressure switch is much more accurate than the auto-shut-off valve in standard RO.
So when the tank is full (pressure reaches 40psi) the pressure switch will turn off the inlet water via solenoid valve and shut down the pump it seems. So I just need to keep the tank's valve open all the time and inlet water running all the time to refill the tank automatically and shut down (with dispensing line closed).
The same should apply if the tank valve is closed right? The switch should turn off the pump if the valves for both tank and dispensing line are closed (the pressure will reach 40psi quick and trigger the switch).
But the switch would not do anything if there is no water in the inlet (and dispensing/tank valves are open), pump will just run dry correct?
My apologies for such a lengthy reply, I was trying to see If I understand the working of this setup.
The system came preassembled with a booster pump like so:
The pump is installed after the sediment filter but before the carbon filters (if I remember correctly, I will check if it is important). I will also check again how the pressure switch and solenoid valve are installed/connected.
The booster pump assembly itself (http://filterdirect.com/product_info.php?products_id=97) includes a pressure switch actually. The product description says this:
When you shut off the dispensing valve or when your own float valve closes, the automatic shut-off valve shuts off the water feed and drain, so prevent wastage of water going to drain. And if you have your own large container and float control valve, this system would turn ON/OFF automatically to refill your container..
and this is taken from their entry for the separately sold pump:
After installing Pump assembly, the RO system will be controlled electronically by the solenoid valve and pressure switch, so when tank is full or reaches 40 psi, the pump will shut-off and the solenoid valve would turn off the water supply. This is a better system than RO without pump since the pressure switch is much more accurate than the auto-shut-off valve in standard RO.
So when the tank is full (pressure reaches 40psi) the pressure switch will turn off the inlet water via solenoid valve and shut down the pump it seems. So I just need to keep the tank's valve open all the time and inlet water running all the time to refill the tank automatically and shut down (with dispensing line closed).
The same should apply if the tank valve is closed right? The switch should turn off the pump if the valves for both tank and dispensing line are closed (the pressure will reach 40psi quick and trigger the switch).
But the switch would not do anything if there is no water in the inlet (and dispensing/tank valves are open), pump will just run dry correct?
My apologies for such a lengthy reply, I was trying to see If I understand the working of this setup.
gill_za
Never Knows Best
Butch,
Thank you again for your reply.
I realize now (after online search) that my original question about filling the tank was rather silly. Unfortunately the manual that came with the system does not go over the pump assembly and its accessories in detail. I did not know about the pressure switch that regulates the pump until I looked up the listing for the pump online.
Ones I'm home I will look more carefully at how the pump and its accessories are connected within the system.
Thank you!
yw Gill, just follow the directions in the two links i listed depending on if its manual off (doubtful) or pressure switch equipped.
Ill check back later
---------- Post added at 01:50 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:47 PM ----------
Great online resource for connection diagrams for various system types:
http://spectrapure.com/support_hud_addons.htm
Ill check back later
---------- Post added at 01:50 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:47 PM ----------
Great online resource for connection diagrams for various system types:
http://spectrapure.com/support_hud_addons.htm
gill_za
Never Knows Best
Butch,
Below is the diagram of my setup. It also shows the wiring of the booster pump and its accessories.
The pump is connected between the sediment filter and carbon filters. The pressure gauge, not shown in the diagram but connected via T between carbon filters and RO membrane, currently shows the pressure = 90psi. Is it worth reconfiguring the system to have the booster pump between the carbon filters and RO membrane at this point?
BTW, the pressure switch works perfectly. Turn of the pump when the tank is full or when the dispenser is closed. I feel really silly about bugging you with the previous questions. I am sorry
Gill,
Personally, I would connect the soleniod and booster pump after the charcoal prefilters. This would prevent either from being exposed to chlorine. If you look at specrtrapure's connection diagrams they also follow this logic.
Im not sure why the vendor would do otherwise.... sorta puzzled by that, but either way wouldnt pose a problem except in long term pump/solenoid life.
I would leave the pressure switch where it is at.
Membrane pressure is what needs to trigger the pump.
So, other than these minor connection details.... is the system functioning correctly now?
HTH's
Butch
---------- Post added at 10:54 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:20 AM ----------
Epiphany:
If they were using substandard charcoal filters, or were concerned about the use of..... I can see the logic.
Cheap charcoal filters can release quite a bit of particulates downstream,
ummm meh... leave it alone as is
Butch
Personally, I would connect the soleniod and booster pump after the charcoal prefilters. This would prevent either from being exposed to chlorine. If you look at specrtrapure's connection diagrams they also follow this logic.
Im not sure why the vendor would do otherwise.... sorta puzzled by that, but either way wouldnt pose a problem except in long term pump/solenoid life.
I would leave the pressure switch where it is at.
Membrane pressure is what needs to trigger the pump.
So, other than these minor connection details.... is the system functioning correctly now?
HTH's
Butch
---------- Post added at 10:54 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:20 AM ----------
Epiphany:
If they were using substandard charcoal filters, or were concerned about the use of..... I can see the logic.
Cheap charcoal filters can release quite a bit of particulates downstream,
ummm meh... leave it alone as is
Butch
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gill_za
Never Knows Best
Gill,
Personally, I would connect the soleniod and booster pump after the charcoal prefilters. This would prevent either from being exposed to chlorine. If you look at specrtrapure's connection diagrams they also follow this logic.
Im not sure why the vendor would do otherwise.... sorta puzzled by that, but either way wouldnt pose a problem except in long term pump/solenoid life.
I would leave the pressure switch where it is at.
Membrane pressure is what needs to trigger the pump.
So, other than these minor connection details.... is the system functioning correctly now?
HTH's
Butch
---------- Post added at 10:54 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:20 AM ----------
Epiphany:
If they were using substandard charcoal filters, or were concerned about the use of..... I can see the logic.
Cheap charcoal filters can release quite a bit of particulates downstream,
ummm meh... leave it alone as is
Butch
Butch,
I think the reason they did this might be just to minimize the amount of tubing used on the setup and keep it compact/neat.
With current setup everything tucks in neatly below the RO membrane and behind the Carbon filters. If the pump is connected after the filters the setup is no longer as compact. I ran this "mental" re-tubing experiment yesterday and the system definitely looses its neatness. It is set up under the sink so I guess size matters here. Oh well
Thank you very much for your help. I greatly appreciate it!
Gill,
Personally, I would connect the soleniod and booster pump after the charcoal prefilters. This would prevent either from being exposed to chlorine. If you look at specrtrapure's connection diagrams they also follow this logic.
Im not sure why the vendor would do otherwise.... sorta puzzled by that
Butch
Booster pumps are typically shown after the sediment filter but before the carbon blocks. This is the configuration recommended by Aquatec (generally considered the best booster pump on the market). They make this recommendation so that carbon fines (dust) coming off the carbon block doesn't make its way into the pump.
We recommend placement of the pump AFTER the carbon block(s), and just after a smalll filter/ strainer:
Russ
---------- Post added at 08:40 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:27 AM ----------
Butch,
Below is the diagram of my setup. It also shows the wiring of the booster pump and its accessories.
For those of you using a sytem that includes a DI stage AND a pressure tank:
Pressure tanks are intended for storing RO water where its not critical that the finished RO water reflects the full rejection rate of the membrane. Rejection rate = the percentage of contaminants (typically measured by EC and converted to ppm of TDS) the membrane does not allow to pass through to the purified water (a.k.a. "permeate" or "RO water").
So most residential scale membanes have a factory spec rejection rate better than 96%. Meaning that if your feedwater was 100 ppm TDS, your RO water would be 4 PPM or less.
Now, remember that RO membranes function based upon the difference in the pressure on the feedwater side of the membrane versus the pressure on the storage tank side of the membrane.
So for sake of discussion let’s say you have 50 psi tap water and your RO water goes to a 5 gallon bucket at 0 psi. So the membrane is operating at 50 – 0 = 50 psi net driving pressure.
Now, if you have your RO water delivered to a pressurized tank, when the tank is full it will provide pressure back against the membrane at 66 to 85% of the feedwater pressure, so 50 psi - ~38 psi = 12 lbs of net driving pressure. You can imagine what sort of rejection rate you’ll see at 12 psi.
So the TDS of RO water in a full tank will be higher than the TDS in RO water delivered to an atmospheric (unpressurized) tank.
So if you are using DI, that tells me you are interested in 0 TDS water. Which means you should also be interested in RO water with minimal TDS. Can an RODI system be plumbed and configured appropriately to include a pressure tank? You bet. It would deliver RO (not DI) water from a pressure tank to a suitable use, and deliver DI water (not from the pressure tank) to a different use. All this requires is some fittings/tubing etc and an understanding of how these systems work. We rarely see vendors on the auction web site with a grasp of this issue.
Russ
Nice post Russ, good info.... nice
Im not a vendor nor mfg of RO but when asked, I typically recommend the use of a permeate pump anytime a pressure tank is used. This way you maintain most of the pressure differential across the membane as you mention, increase prefilter life plus keep a reserve of RODI at the ready.
Butch
Im not a vendor nor mfg of RO but when asked, I typically recommend the use of a permeate pump anytime a pressure tank is used. This way you maintain most of the pressure differential across the membane as you mention, increase prefilter life plus keep a reserve of RODI at the ready.
Butch
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RO membranes function based upon the difference in the pressure on the feedwater side of the membrane versus the pressure on the storage tank side of the membrane.
If you have your RO water delivered to a pressurized tank, when the tank is full it will provide pressure back against the membrane at 66 to ~85% of the feedwater pressure, so 50 psi - ~38 psi = 12 lbs of net driving pressure. You can imagine what sort of rejection rate you’ll see at 12 psi. That is, the TDS in RO water coming from a pressure tank will be higher than the TDS of the permeate straight from the membrane. Higher TDS delivered to a DI stage will decrease the useful lifespan of the resin.
As some background info, here are some data that depict rejection rate of residential scale membranes at various (differential) pressures:
Russ
If you have your RO water delivered to a pressurized tank, when the tank is full it will provide pressure back against the membrane at 66 to ~85% of the feedwater pressure, so 50 psi - ~38 psi = 12 lbs of net driving pressure. You can imagine what sort of rejection rate you’ll see at 12 psi. That is, the TDS in RO water coming from a pressure tank will be higher than the TDS of the permeate straight from the membrane. Higher TDS delivered to a DI stage will decrease the useful lifespan of the resin.
As some background info, here are some data that depict rejection rate of residential scale membranes at various (differential) pressures:
Russ
