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Thread: Species Extinction & Human Population Growth

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    Species Extinction & Human Population Growth

    Boring Allert......Boring Allert.......I am about to spill my pessimistic beliefs all over this discussion string!!!!!
    Moderator....feel free to send this to lala land or an off topic section here!
    Now this will read as off topic but everything we do effects the planet and are huge compared to species extinction. I guess I focus on truly serious issues that will effect all our futures and future progeny. Human beings are users and the biggest issue of all, human population growth, isn't even being discussed by the world community. I believe that will be the downfall of society and free societies will become closely regulated thus making them not so free. Our biggest flaw is that not enough of us as individuals take responsibility for our behaviors and some families continue to produce children like there is no tomorrow. Speaking as a U.S. citizen, Illegal immigration and procreation in accordance with religious beliefs are a huge problem in the U.S. and especially in poorer countries and I personally know of several families in my area that are creating a new life about every 10 months to reinforce what I call the "puppy law", sneak across and have a baby and you can stay. You can't trust people to be honest or do the right thing and I just don't see any way to fix things short of setting up oxygen and carbon dioxide generators on mars to create another livable planet. Of course someone with the technology would have to alter the magnetic structure of that planet requiring the creation of a molten core and that is way beyond our abilities. Just making the point that we can do good things for now but eventually most plant and animal species will be long gone including us. The consensus is that 2100 will be when the Earth can no longer support us at current growth trends. Solar, wind and nuclear power might postpone it for a while but as long as humans reproduce at such a high rate it has to happen. I grew up in the 1950's and '60's and that was the best time of my life, it didn't hurt to have clones of Ward and June Cleaver as parents either. We trusted more than mistrusted, used resources without concern and dumped leaded gas fumes all over the planet leading to all kinds of syndromes. I am still able to enjoy my life and escapism includes a prescription medication called Tramodol, my upstairs bathroom / Nepenthes greenhouse and TV shows like Leave It To Beaver, Star Trek: Next Generation and WWII documentaries and my classic Honda bike collection and restoration project. Being retired I spend a lot of time on my bikes cruising the rural and suburban back roads occasionally stopping at a stream or wooded area to experience the wonders of nature. Probably seems silly for a 60 year old guy to admit but lifting a flat rock and seeing one of our local snake species, Red Milksnake, Copperhead or even a Timber Rattler, is astounding and I will never get over how amazing nature is. Think I maybe took a little too much of the pain killer today..............probably yes!

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    Whimgrinder's Avatar
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    All that because someone queried you on your choice of supplier for collected Nepenthes seeds??! ;-)

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    i dont do pots. amphirion's Avatar
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    i wouldnt worry too much about that. as we expand, certain factors will keep us in check. the simplest one i can think of is biological in an of itself, super germs and viruses. lyme disease, HIV, spanish flu, black plague, ebola- each of them were in their own little self contained worlds of checks and balances until human expansion disrupted their cycles (there's an interesting book floating around about this, but i cant recall the author or title). heck, misuse of antibiotics has left us with a slew of super resilient bugs that only the strongest drugs can barely destroy. as human populations continue to grow, we will come into contact with more like these and the chances of spreading a pathogen among a dense population will spread faster.

    as ian malcom said, "life, finds a way..."
    " You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." -Inigo Montoya
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    Sphagnum Guru Wire Man's Avatar
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    Another factor that will keep us from expanding too far is food resources. We'll exhaust our farm lands, run out of live stock and pasture, etc. I'm willing to bet we're due for another plague in 100 years or so.

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    swords's Avatar
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    Another factor that will keep us from expanding too far is food resources. We'll exhaust our farm lands, run out of live stock and pasture, etc. I'm willing to bet we're due for another plague in 100 years or so.
    Warhammer 40,000 has a simple answer: search the galaxy for planets that can be used as: Agri-worlds, Industrial worlds, Mining worlds, etc. If anyone is already there just initiate a ground war or unleash cyclonic torpedoes / earth eater viruses from an orbital bombardment and just "clean the slate". Then we can take the resources we need or terraform the planet to suit our purposes. It's only fitting seeing as we come from Holy Terra and they are just alien scum.


    Ave Imperator!
    Last edited by swords; 12-17-2012 at 12:04 AM.

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    All that because someone queried you on your choice of supplier for collected Nepenthes seeds??! ;-)
    Nope, my last line says it all......think I maybe took a little too much of the pain killer today.

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    richjam1986's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whimgrinder View Post
    All that because someone queried you on your choice of supplier for collected Nepenthes seeds??! ;-)
    Lol That was my query you speak of. And I have a response that could really fit in either thread...

    Before I continue to say what I have to say, I think it's clear that you (Spooky) have a great love for the natural world and seem like a good person. I don't want to start a confrontation, and I don't want to express any disrespect, but I feel I must tell it as I see it. Also, while there are different views towards the moral issue of seed poaching for dirrect economic gain (I for one don't see a argument for it that I would accept, and am vahemiantly against it), it's the arguments you used that I took some issue with, rather than just that issue specifically.
    .....
    In response to your (Spooky's) response to my post (on his other thread: http://www.terraforums.com/forums/sh...92#post1105892) , and the above exposition: I must say that while things do look dire, hope is not completely lost for salvaging the core of many beautiful areas and ecosystems in the world, and a doomsday attitude is no excuse to be loose in one's own standards for helping in the cause of conservation. Likewise, in regards to letting the countries in question worry about managing their own natural resources (eg seed export) simply makes no moral sense (see next paragraph). And the fact that others give into temptation to collect seeds (or reptiles, or whatever), also is no reason to go ahead and do so oneself. The point is that all of these are nothing but EXCUSES to place responsibility on other people or circumstances. They are not legitimate moral arguments, as I see it. The best control we have is SELF control, and if more people showed more self control it would do a LOT of good for the world in these regards.

    In a global economy, single country solutions CANNOT and WILL NOT fully work. For example, as long as there is a high demand and high price for elephant tusks and rhino horns in China, Africans will continue to poach these species to extinction despite efforts of local authorities. You cannot then say with a straight face that it's not largely up to the Chinese to change their social paradigm and decrease the demand for these 'products'. The same goes in the herp trade, or the plant trade, etc., irrespective of what countries are involved. You were using this as a defence for buying potentially poached seeds, which may be less of a moral delema than buying an elephant tusk, true, but the principle behind it is the same.
    .....
    I agree that population is a huge problem. Like you said, it is underdeveloped countries now that are the worst offenders. Many of the developed countries (including the U.S.) have birth rates at or below replacement rate, so that's a plus, and contraceptives are becoming more widespread in developing countries. We definately have a long way to go though.

    Amphirion: While I'm not completely discounting the 'plague solution' to population, one of the main reasons human population is as high as it is today (in addition to increased crop yield/acre due to fertilizers, industrialization, etc.) is the progress of medicine, which has been enough to allow the population to explode over the last century or so. I personally don't know if there's a very high chance of plagues becoming widespread enough to dent population growth in the face of current medical knowledge, hygiene, and technology. I guess time will tell though :nervous:
    Last edited by richjam1986; 12-17-2012 at 02:31 AM.
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    Sphagnum Guru Wire Man's Avatar
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    Richard, that brought to mind a funny conversation I had with someone in November. They were complaining that the economy was too bad for land to be developed, and birth rates were falling. My response was, "Good! Maybe some wetlands can actually be restored instead of decimated. This isn't necessarily a bad thing."

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