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Thread: Discuss: Nomenclature edits on forum posts

  1. #25
    BS Bulldozer SubRosa's Avatar
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    This issue is one of style as opposed to substance, however it seems to me that the best solution lies in substance. The style here is offensive to some and not an issue to others. If the current debate is intended to determine whether or not this style of corrections should continue, a look at the substance of the totality of posts of those on respective sides of the issue would seem in order. And a bit of interpolation regarding the future outcomes of the two respective courses of action. The relative valuation of the posts I referred to is a judgment to be made by Andrew. The future outcomes I feel qualified to speak to. Course #1, the corrections continue. Those who have no problem with the corrections obviously have no problem. Those who take issue with the style are going to react in various ways, none of which I see as benefiting the community. Course #2 the style is changed. Corrections are still made, but in a way not offensive to some. Those who had no issue with the style will likely not miss it when it's gone. They're still getting the same information, and by the admission of at least some, all that matters is getting the right information. However the effects upon those who take issue with the style will no doubt benefit the community ss a whole.
    Judge not lest ye be judged creates a cesspool. Judge others and prepare to be judged by them.
    Just know when to keep the verdict to yourself.

  2. #26
    RL7836's Avatar
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    Wow - I almost made it through the thread without feeling a need to comment .... until I got to Dragonseye's post ... and while I respect Dragonseye, I respectfully must disagree.

    For the most part, I've been able to see this general disagreement from the outside as JC hasn't altered any of my posts (of which I'm aware) 8^) - so I've been able to watch this unfold. Having been around for a while, I also have the benefit of having seen round one and also the slow changes history has wrought in general.
    Quote Originally Posted by Whimgrinder View Post
    Those are reasonable concerns. But you also face the potential scenario in which your members simply stop contributing valued content because they're insulted by this editing practice and don't care to set themselves up for more of it.
    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsEye View Post
    While I do hear what you're saying, Paul, I can't agree with you. If a person is that "thinned skin"/immature that they can't handle correction, then she/he has no business being on any forum.

    Correction of errors as a moderator comes across them is more time efficient, and I don't see anything belittling about said correction being done directly by the mod. If the "red" makes folks see "red", then perhaps another color for the corrections would still make them visible without offending the poster's delicate sensibilities.
    Tenet 1 - TF should be a welcoming, enjoyable environment where people respect each other and have the opportunity to share information & learn. (strong opinion alert)

    When I see experienced growers as well as truly kind-hearted souls (sorry Djoni - I'm calling you out), start to have an issue with something, I'll often pay attention. (Yes, some people are more intolerant & 'prickly' than others & that needs to be considered).

    Accuracy has it's place - but so do freedom of expression & creativity. The argument has been made that people doing searches in the future may find portions of text incomprehensible if strict nomenclature guidelines are not followed. While in theory, this can be true but it has to be pretty bad & I'll argue that this is very easily the exception more than the rule. If true comprehension were the goal, then I would suggest that other posts should also be altered - such as:
    Does entire now the story behind h. minor selection 1 h. minor burgundy black and h. minor big orange. I'm interacted in the bumber off seedlings it took to find them three (original creator's identity removed)
    As mentioned by others in this thread, at some point, the type of corrections currently being done are less about accuracy & comprehension then they are about pedantry.

    In the past, English language contributors had two choices for sharing their CP-related thoughts: Terra & CPUK. Now, there are at least six other CP forums in English as well as 3-5 high-quality non-English forums (easily accessible via Google translate) in addition to Facebook & Reddit offerings. Bottom line: people can easily move to other venues where they may feel more comfortable or valued.

    I don't want to suggest that correct nomenclature has no value - far from it. I think that it is one aspect of any site & it's specific worth should be compared to all the other attributes of a site that the owner & contributors feel are important.
    All the best,
    Ron
    You must do the thing you think you cannot do. --- Eleanor Roosevelt

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  3. #27
    ps3isawesome's Avatar
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    What happens in the future when someone is private messaged about an error in his/her post and the person can't respond within a reasonable time frame? I do see the value in having the corrections made right away to avoid the spread of misinformation for new or existing members. But I also think people should be notified first, have a discussion to see if the correction is necessary and valid, and have a chance to make the corrections themselves. Should the poster be given maybe 24 hours to respond before the mods do the correction themselves? But that also seems to inconvenient the mods as they have to monitor time and stay on call when they can easily just edit themselves in a few seconds. Or we could offer the ability to edit other people's post to whim, cthulhu138, and other expert growers on terraform as a way to alleviate the mods if they are busy themselves? If the mods do end up having to make the correction themselves, how should the edits be displayed and written? Some people may respond negatively to the color red or the wording for the edit. Any suggestions?
    Last edited by ps3isawesome; 03-07-2015 at 11:53 AM.

  4. #28
    hcarlton's Avatar
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    If corrections are absolutely needed then the creator of the post should be notified first before action is taken in view of the public. While I (and some others) may occasionally frequent this forum multiple times a day, only 24 hours is not enough time for many to be able to come in and make the necessary changes if it turns out a change is needed. However, a week may also be a little long, so somewhere in between might be good. And there should be discussion to make sure both parties (the poster and the moderator) understand the use for whatever name is chosen in the end.

    I feel a need to make a comment of opinion of my own here as well: the bold red edits with the "not accepted" notes and such are over the top. Side notes of possibly a less intrusive color, and maybe a link to the used background nomenclature suffice. And it should be noted that a single database is NOT evidence enough to go in and make changes to other people's threads. One of the biggest issues recently has been the nomenclature of Sarracenia, especially hybrids. Yes, many of the names currently used were never "officially" described and published, however they are well documented, refer to specific crosses, and there is no confusion when using said names. And I feel it relevant to add that just in the last CPN edition, there is an article outlining the currently known and used names for natural hybrids, with given type descriptions and nomenclatural background, so declaring them invalid for this reason or other is pushing boundaries at this point. Similarly for the use of numerous Nepenthes hybrids, which have often been in place for years and are well documented even if not having been published in a proper journal somewhere. These naming shortcuts are easy and rarely have much confusion behind them, with the exception of many of the old Victorian names for the hookeriana x mirabilis hybrids, which are a special case and exception to the norm.
    Everything has a reason, whether big or small. Never underestimate the power of what is or is not.
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  5. #29
    Moderator Joseph Clemens's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whimgrinder View Post
    Yes. Precisely!

    So - why has Joseph not contributed anything to this discussion?? I'm far more likely to find my way to middle ground if he were to make an effort to defend his position and explain his tactic - or at least add his voice to the discussion.
    Because, Joseph has already explained his points, in various threads, throughout the forums and you've already acknowledged one of my most recent on this topic, and in an encouraging way. Below this link is a quote of what you said in response to my post -> Nomenclature - it isn't that complicated

    Quote Originally Posted by Whimgrinder View Post
    I don't know if its being "lackadaisical" or what, but the chronic misrepresentation of proper names is rampant, its true. So often people tend to abbreviate Latin names and generate perverse nicknames for plants, and all it does is obfuscate any genuine data. Most unhelpful.
    I do admit that a few CP taxon are still in dispute. New updates to some names have been published and not yet accepted by everyone. This, however, is not uncommon. Whenever someone disagrees with my nomenclatural corrections, I welcome the dialogue thus generated. It is something I'm sure many passers-by or beginners can appreciate. I know, when I was a beginner I appreciated learning about those things. It demonstrates how dynamic our international plant naming systems can be. For instance, when I first began growing CP, Darlingtonia californica was known as Chrysamphora californica. This was one of my first experiences with the dynamics of CP names.

    If I had to PM every poster over every nomenclatural correction, I'd be an extremely busy moderator. As it is, I've just been tweaking the nomenclature as I notice it in my normal skimming through the forum.
    Last edited by Joseph Clemens; 03-07-2015 at 12:34 PM.
    Joseph Clemens
    Tucson, Arizona, U S A

  6. #30
    Plant Addict!! tje25's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joseph Clemens View Post
    If I had to PM every poster over every nomenclatural correction, I'd be an extremely busy moderator. As it is, I've just been tweaking the nomenclature as I notice it in my normal skimming through the forum.
    If you havnt noticed, a majority of us don't appreciated the way you have been going about this. You havnt done it to me yet (that I know of), but I find your tactics extremely rude, degrading, and disrespectful.

    Its obvious that not everyone feels this way, and that's fine, to each his own, but a majority of us do.

    I meen come on...its really not that hard to pm sombody before changing THIER work.

    I know this is an international forum but some of us live in a free country, where we have a right to free speech without being censored.

    On another note, I do agree that having the correct information is important.

  7. #31
    Whimgrinder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joseph Clemens View Post
    Whenever someone disagrees with my nomenclatural corrections, I welcome the dialogue thus generated.
    By editing people's writing and inserting bold red editors comments, you are not inviting dialog, you are being authoritarian. Your approach invites no dialog whatsoever. Lets be clear on one thing: I have nothing whatsoever against using correct (or "correct enough") nomenclature on forums - what I object to is your style of doing it. Its rude and pedantic. Drop the red "angry schoolmarm" notation and I think you'll have far fewer problems with the people here.

  8. #32
    BS Bulldozer SubRosa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tje25 View Post
    If you havnt noticed, a majority of us don't appreciated the way you have been going about this. You havnt done it to me yet (that I know of), but I find your tactics extremely rude, degrading, and disrespectful.

    Its obvious that not everyone feels this way, and that's fine, to each his own, but a majority of us do.

    I meen come on...its really not that hard to pm sombody before changing THIER work.

    I know this is an international forum but some of us live in a free country, where we have a right to free speech without being censored.

    On another note, I do agree that having the correct information is important.
    Point of order, CONGRESS shall pass no laws abridging free expression.......but the owner of an internet domain can censor anyone in any way for any or no reason.
    Judge not lest ye be judged creates a cesspool. Judge others and prepare to be judged by them.
    Just know when to keep the verdict to yourself.

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