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Thread: Discuss: Nomenclature edits on forum posts

  1. #49
    ps3isawesome's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dexenthes View Post
    Nothing should change - every generation of TF user should have to suffer through Joseph's invasive editing - it's like a rite of passage.
    I burst out in laughter when I saw this, sorry if this comment doesn't contribute at all to this discussion.

  2. #50
    Cthulhu138's Avatar
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    Butch, your situation with this is akin to my own experience. Pretty much exactly the same circumstance, only involving different plants.

    I guess my biggest question here is:

    What makes Joseph the absolute authority on carnivorous plant taxonomy and nomenclature on TF ?

    I certainly don't believe he is. He's proven his ignorance of many species time and again yet he still feels compelled that it is his duty to force these antiquated names down the throats of members via his parasitic post edits and thread derailments. I have belonged to many other forums over the years (both plant and animal forums) and have never witnessed behavior like this from a moderator on any of them. In fact, I've never seen a mod kick up such a stir as this with their methods of bulldozing their opinions and misinformation on any forum anywhere. As John stated in in earlier post, moderators are here to keep the peace and that is the last thing he is doing with the methods he's chosen use. There is nothing "moderate" about what he's been doing here.

  3. #51
    Moderator Joseph Clemens's Avatar
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    If you think about it, anyone who is new to TF and new to CP, might visit TF and automatically assume, everyone here were more familiar with CP than they are. They might go into, newbie pupil mode, absorbing everything they read, and incorporating it into their developing personal CP databank - I did. Of course, I'm assuming other newbies may be similar to how I was. If they see "junk" (incorrectly spelled or written CP names), they could assimilate this into that databank, so later we get - junk in = junk out, and so do they. This is a great disservice we do for newbies, no matter how well meaning we are, or what our reasoning may be. In reading the many complaints, here, I can't help but think that many cannot remember how it was when they were newbies. Of course, few seem to connect miswritten names to misidentified plants, but that is a big part of the issue that develops. As a moderator, I try to think of everyone that may be audience to what is posted on TF, and accommodate their expected needs - even if they may not ever be aware of it, themselves. If we were just writing posts in our personal blogs, no big deal. But, TF is an international database that is open 24/7/365 to anyone, anywhere, forever (if it persists). Do we really want to teach newbies, garbage, or to be known to our posterity for writing garbage? In saying and thinking about this, I'm talking to myself as much as anyone. I want to be known as a defender of our precious CP and helping to keep them correctly identified. I don't want to be remembered as one of those guys who doesn't really care how accurate we write CP names. I've created my fair share of "junk". I have determined to reduce the amount of junk I create, and do my best to help others, too. I think of us as a community. Whatever any of us does, reflects on all of us.

    I certainly don't know a tiny fraction of what there is to know about CP. And I am acutely aware of those limitations. Due to this, I still often find myself in a novice pupil mode. I am quite frequently reminded of this, most recently in a Heliamphora thread. Where I saw plants being called by nonstandard abbreviations of their species epithets. I wanted to know what plants were actually being discussed, so I looked up those abbreviations in the CP Database, to see if I could identify them. I tentatively identified them, correcting the names, and spelling them out. Later, others, including the OP, illuminated the thread more completely as they explained they were following a newly published taxonomic update. This thoroughly assisted me in updating my novice pupil databank, and I'm sure, many others did theirs, too. Not everyone can be as up-to-date as we'd like to be, without a little help from each other.

    So, do many of you feel that mods should PM you, so you can decide to correct your own typos? For instance, if you type D. Capensis, and you actually meant to type, D. capensis, you want to be PM'd, so you can decide if you want to correct that, or not, of your own volition?
    Joseph Clemens
    Tucson, Arizona, U S A

  4. #52
    BS Bulldozer SubRosa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joseph Clemens View Post
    If you think about it, anyone who is new to TF and new to CP, might visit TF and automatically assume, everyone here were more familiar with CP than they are. They might go into, newbie pupil mode, absorbing everything they read, and incorporating it into their developing personal CP databank - I did. Of course, I'm assuming other newbies may be similar to how I was. If they see "junk" (incorrectly spelled or written CP names), they could assimilate this into that databank, so later we get - junk in = junk out, and so do they. This is a great disservice we do for newbies, no matter how well meaning we are, or what our reasoning may be. In reading the many complaints, here, I can't help but think that many cannot remember how it was when they were newbies. Of course, few seem to connect miswritten names to misidentified plants, but that is a big part of the issue that develops. As a moderator, I try to think of everyone that may be audience to what is posted on TF, and accommodate their expected needs - even if they may not ever be aware of it, themselves. If we were just writing posts in our personal blogs, no big deal. But, TF is an international database that is open 24/7/365 to anyone, anywhere, forever (if it persists). Do we really want to teach newbies, garbage, or to be known to our posterity for writing garbage? In saying and thinking about this, I'm talking to myself as much as anyone. I want to be known as a defender of our precious CP and helping to keep them correctly identified. I don't want to be remembered as one of those guys who doesn't really care how accurate we write CP names. I've created my fair share of "junk". I have determined to reduce the amount of junk I create, and do my best to help others, too. I think of us as a community. Whatever any of us does, reflects on all of us.

    I certainly don't know a tiny fraction of what there is to know about CP. And I am acutely aware of those limitations. Due to this, I still often find myself in a novice pupil mode. I am quite frequently reminded of this, most recently in a Heliamphora thread. Where I saw plants being called by nonstandard abbreviations of their species epithets. I wanted to know what plants were actually being discussed, so I looked up those abbreviations in the CP Database, to see if I could identify them. I tentatively identified them, correcting the names, and spelling them out. Later, others, including the OP, illuminated the thread more completely as they explained they were following a newly published taxonomic update. This thoroughly assisted me in updating my novice pupil databank, and I'm sure, many others did theirs, too. Not everyone can be as up-to-date as we'd like to be, without a little help from each other.

    So, do many of you feel that mods should PM you, so you can decide to correct your own typos? For instance, if you type D. Capensis, and you actually meant to type, D. capensis, you want to be PM'd, so you can decide if you want to correct that, or not, of your own volition?
    I completely disagree with using pm to address this.
    I think the way to handle an alleged mistake posted on a public forum is with a post in the same thread respectfully offering the alternative information. This is not the job of mods, although they are not necessarily precluded from doing so. It's the job of any member with the information to put it out. It's the job of the mods to see that things stay within whatever guidelines on forum behavior the forum operator sets.
    Judge not lest ye be judged creates a cesspool. Judge others and prepare to be judged by them.
    Just know when to keep the verdict to yourself.

  5. #53
    Admin- I'm growing CPs in the Desert of Tucson, Az. adnedarn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cthulhu138 View Post
    What makes Joseph the absolute authority on carnivorous plant taxonomy and nomenclature on TF ?

    Nothing. What Joseph has brought to us is years and years of this activity and as far as I know, no issue with it. Until this recent return of his after his (I'm not even sure how long) leave from the forums... It's not a "job" he was ever given, it was one he took on and again, as far as I could tell, one that people found useful. I'm not positive whose names are right or anything- I'm not the guy to keep up on all of that. I believe some are taking the names that have been published in books or something as the "new name" but are they? Do we have to wait for some International Association for Plant Taxonomy to give their blessing/approval first?...or is it just instantly so since someone says so....? I have no idea, I don't claim to know.

    I wanted to understand why it was fine for so many years, and not now and that's why I opened this discussion, my guess is the change in the internet and "netiquette" (internet etiquette ).

    Anyway! Thanks to everyone for expressing your feeling and such, if this is something that you've had issues with "for years" what can I say other than you've not brought it to my attention. I've said it so many times about so many things, don't think your comments in your post are being seen by the people it needs to be seen by, or comments to your friends in the chatbox... Please bring concerns to me or a mod, if it's with a mod or actions by a mod... then come to me. I've heard of people leaving TF for this or that, all things that have never been brought to my attention, but I'm expected to know it is an issue.

    Here is my conclusion... Posts will not be edited for nomenclature, if mods (or members!) feel they would like to continue this word, I would say they are welcome to PM the user OR post a new reply if they feel the error is strong enough/frequent enough to warrant it. But these efforts will be from users who may or may not be moderators and their PMs/posts are not from a moderator stand point but rather people who care about the correctness of the posts enough to take the time to do so. I realize sometimes that can make a topic go off topic, feel free to contact a moderator or admin and we are all able to "split" a post and make that nomenclature discussion it's own topic to help keep the topic, well, on topic. I know some here said they don't want a public reply... Hopefully the people that are helping (PMing and posting) can keep these people in mind and try to work with them in the method they would prefer, but I also hope that those people can understand if their preferred method is not always used.

    I know this isn't a solve all for all of you, and I'm sorry. But I'm confident that you can appreciate the efforts put into trying to figure out what to do in instances like this. Maybe we could even come up with some type of message or code for our signatures to let people know our preferred method.... if you really really really want people to use a certain method. I'm open to any and all modifications of my posts. If you have access to modify my post for correctness, please do so- I have already admitted I'm not up to date on all of that. Those of you that can't, PM me, reply to the post, email me... whatever.

    Thanks all for your time and efforts put into this discussion. Sure it's not on plants (well, the plants themselves) but I always enjoy a good healthy discussion with you, and I hope you like having it with me/us!

    Andrew
    -Andrew
    Owner of TerraForums, FlyTrapShop.com, and cpforums.org.
    Support FlyTrapShop, support TerraForums! www.flytrapshop.com

  6. #54
    I hate bugs. Carnivorous plants get me. jpappy789's Avatar
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    Thanks Andrew, I think that is a reasonable middle ground for everyone.
    -Josh
    Grow list

  7. #55
    Moderator Joseph Clemens's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dexenthes View Post
    I've already attempted to start this one up too many times before. I'm done trying to lynch Joseph, it's been years. I just re-edit my post if I don't like his changes.
    I could have, locked each post after my edits, but I don't, and aren't even considering doing so. If someone were to revert my edits, I might be inspired, then, to make my own post, explaining myself, if I felt strongly enough about it - I haven't, yet. The vast majority of my edits are simple, typo corrections, such as inserting the single quotes for registered cultivar names, or adjusting the capitalization. The first edit to correct nomenclature, I ever performed, was when a newbie started a thread, and was abbreviating the plant he was discussing, calling it - D. cap. If I remember correctly, I believe I PM'd him, to ask which Drosera he was referring to, by use of that abbreviation. I'm fairly certain that it was Drosera capensis and not Drosera capillaris.
    Joseph Clemens
    Tucson, Arizona, U S A

  8. #56
    Whimgrinder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SubRosa View Post
    I think the way to handle an alleged mistake posted on a public forum is with a post in the same thread respectfully offering the alternative information.
    Yes - THIS.

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